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Final Tips?: 2.2 for 2.5 swap - 96' OBW


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15 replies to this topic

#1 jmickelct

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 03:36 PM

Hi,

Engine (and tranny) hunting now, wanted to make best use of the experience here...

To review:

A 1995 EJ22 will direct bolt into my 1996 OBW (currently with a dying EJ25 4EAT) and, the dual port exhaust and EGR on the 95 2.2 should make the swap nearly "perfect" (no need to rewire, no computer issues, etc...).

I will be trying to get a paired EJ22 \ 4EAT set, out of the same car, but if I can only get seperately, a 1996 4EAT (my production date is 12/95) out of a car with a production date of 06/95-06/96, then there should be no problem matching that up with a 95 2.2?

Having never bought a used engine, have folks found that haggling tends to be part of the process? Should I go in cold asking for "their best price", especially if I have several options. Dont want to be overbearing *or* stupid on either side (not that I'm too worried about taking advantage of anyone!...). Have just found that experience means a lot and, without it, want to go in with my eyes as open as they can be.

-John

#2 grossgary

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 05:16 PM

definitely bargain shop, they often (usually) come down in price. particularly if you've really got options and can just go somewhere else. i've taken in internet parts prices before and had local stores match those even on brand new parts (XT6 gasket sets are expensive).

if it's a mated engine trans set then make sure the trans gear ratio matches the rear diff. OR...make sure you get the rear diff with the trans. the 2.2's usually have a different trans gear ratio than the 2.5's...but probably not always. just check. all that matters is that the rear diff and trans have the same ratio.

and yes the 95 will drop right in, dual port exhaust and no wiring issues, plug and play (as is the case with any 2.2).

with all that you need if it were me i'd probably look for a wrecked car. but you probably don't have the time for that. they can often be picked up cheap and would have the entire engine/trans and rear diff (if needed) for the swap. probably too late since you've already put all this work into it though. i've gotten 4 soobs for free and 2 wrecked EJ's fairly cheap with engines/trans in excellent condition.

#3 nipper

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 05:43 PM

what grossgary said. Sometimes you can get a deal. I've gotten deals where you buy the car for 500.00, they drop it off in the yard, you pick it clean, they come pick it up when your done.


nipper

#4 jmickelct

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 06:15 PM

Roger on the haggling... (have some basic skills....).. some of the sources are a bit squirrly seling me a 95 unit to swap into my 96 (if I tell them, something I may just stop doing), even refusing to warrantee it "for an off applications" (too bad, found a 2.2 in RI for $275....)

So far my Impreza is still running, so hopefully have a month or two to "shop"... have learned a few online tricks of getting quotes....

What are the sources for complete wrecks?

(will obviously need to get ones within driving ranges... still a bit iffy on my ability to pull everything out and get it right...).

Found a complete removed 95' 2.2\4EAT engin\trans set in Brewster (~1hr) for a grand, could pick up and can probably squeeze a bit.

On the rear differential, I saw a post here that said the 4.1's were 5speed and thd 4.44's were Automatic and that, short of puliing the plug and counting the teeth, that theres really no way of knowing what I have...

So how is the matching suppose to go?

Also see that swapping isnt a huge deal, should I crawl under, see if I can count the teeth (is a drain\refill involved) and buy "the other", just to have it on hand? (how many teeth relate to 4.44 or 4.1?)

And finally, is there really anything to govern how close to the mileage that a shop quotes is on an engine\transmission re: how much it actually has? Seems like a *lot* of units stating ~80-90k miles, which seems just about enough to be possible though not too much to be too worn.... Without knowing a guy or shop, (have already been strongly warned away from the folks down at Hunts Pt here in NY as being complete sharks...), is there any convention that would suggest any unit had the mileage stated? (he asked skeptically)...

Also saw the post on the little melty deals, to tell if an engine had been cooked.... are these on all engines? If so where? Is this a useful diagostic?

-John


definitely bargain shop, they often (usually) come down in price. particularly if you've really got options and can just go somewhere else. i've taken in internet parts prices before and had local stores match those even on brand new parts (XT6 gasket sets are expensive).

if it's a mated engine trans set then make sure the trans gear ratio matches the rear diff. OR...make sure you get the rear diff with the trans. the 2.2's usually have a different trans gear ratio than the 2.5's...but probably not always. just check. all that matters is that the rear diff and trans have the same ratio.

and yes the 95 will drop right in, dual port exhaust and no wiring issues, plug and play (as is the case with any 2.2).

with all that you need if it were me i'd probably look for a wrecked car. but you probably don't have the time for that. they can often be picked up cheap and would have the entire engine/trans and rear diff (if needed) for the swap. probably too late since you've already put all this work into it though. i've gotten 4 soobs for free and 2 wrecked EJ's fairly cheap with engines/trans in excellent condition.



#5 hankosolder2

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 10:28 PM

And finally, is there really anything to govern how close to the mileage that a shop quotes is on an engine\transmission re: how much it actually has? Seems like a *lot* of units stating ~80-90k miles, which seems just about enough to be possible though not too much to be too worn.... Without knowing a guy or shop, (have already been strongly warned away from the folks down at Hunts Pt here in NY as being complete sharks...), is there any convention that would suggest any unit had the mileage stated? (he asked skeptically)...

Also saw the post on the little melty deals, to tell if an engine had been cooked.... are these on all engines? If so where? Is this a useful diagostic?

-John[/quote]

I discovered a little trick; Subaru puts a VIN on their engine blocks... run a Carfax on the vin # and you'll be able to see the last recorded mileage. In my case, I discovered my '95 donor engine had 140K miles on it the last time it was titled. Runs great, needs no oil between changes. Don't get too fixated on mileage. You can also see how the oil that's in the engine looks.

Good luck,
Nathan

#6 johnceggleston

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 09:52 AM

[quote name='hankosolder2']
-John[/quote]
I discovered a little trick; Subaru puts a VIN on their engine blocks... ,
Nathan[/quote]

also true with transmissioins. there is a rectangular tag on the left side about halfway back. has the vin printed on the tag, and if you remove the tag it's etched in to the case. this is for sure on 97's. not so sure about 95-96's.

where do they put the vin on the engine??

#7 jmickelct

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 03:03 PM

Both very good tips...

Starting to locate junk yards within driving distance... would very much like to be able to see anc check out the unit before buying (versus having it shipped).

Will be interested to see also about VIN on transmission.

#8 grossgary

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 03:10 PM

Starting to locate junk yards within driving distance... would very much like to be able to see anc check out the unit before buying (versus having it shipped)..

seeing that it's wrecked is a big plus, you know why it was taken off the road.

#9 jmickelct

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 05:20 PM

But on matching the rear differentials.. can I ask again how that is done in practice? Does it hold that an automatic will have a 4.44 rear end and a 5speed a 4.1?

And (seems like it should be obvious but I have to confess to not know) will the same junk yards that sell used engines\trannys also be the same sources for wrecks? (always wondered where the junkers go after the insurance pays off...) the the online shops (junkyarddog.com kind of places) pretty much it, or are there other wreck places that have the whole cars?

#10 grossgary

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 06:16 PM

i have a contacts in the auto world that allows me to go to the dealer only auctions, those are the ticket if you know someone or get access. sometimes they have public auctions as well, PA is well known for it's auctions. otherwise keep your eye out on here, ebay, etc for wrecked vehicles. they're typically not available often enough to snag when you need it, but they come up sometimes and i buy them as parts car. took me a few months to get the wrecked EJ parts cars i wanted. junk yards will sell entire vehicles, just have to see what they want for it.

it's definitely not as simple as saying an auto is a 4.44 and a manual is a 4.11. Subaru tried to confuse the entire world when they went with the EJ stuff and final drive ratios...and they succeeded. there's a good list out there for nailing down the manual trans gear ratios but EJ stuff is harder to figure out, no good charts or anything that i've seen. probably the biggest PITA in dealing with transmissions.

#11 jmickelct

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 07:50 PM

How about if I do as several posts suggest: pull the plug on the rear end and count the threads (?).... For my 96 EJ25\4EAT, any idea of what number will match up to what my ratio is? (I may run another thread on this to see if anyone might take a guess...). This being my first time through with the mechanic I've found, I'd like to try and ferret out any potential issues as much as I can up front...

I actually did get into an auction where I actually bought this car ($2650 @ auction.... guy who got me in drove it up another $1200, but it was still well under book... too bad it *:!(* the bed....!!!). I thought there actually were a few wrecks up there... so who usually buys these things? Small shops for swapping parts from?



i have a contacts in the auto world that allows me to go to the dealer only auctions, those are the ticket if you know someone or get access. sometimes they have public auctions as well, PA is well known for it's auctions. otherwise keep your eye out on here, ebay, etc for wrecked vehicles. they're typically not available often enough to snag when you need it, but they come up sometimes and i buy them as parts car. took me a few months to get the wrecked EJ parts cars i wanted. junk yards will sell entire vehicles, just have to see what they want for it.

it's definitely not as simple as saying an auto is a 4.44 and a manual is a 4.11. Subaru tried to confuse the entire world when they went with the EJ stuff and final drive ratios...and they succeeded. there's a good list out there for nailing down the manual trans gear ratios but EJ stuff is harder to figure out, no good charts or anything that i've seen. probably the biggest PITA in dealing with transmissions.



#12 Distance Commuter

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 08:57 PM

....will the same junk yards that sell used engines\trannys also be the same sources for wrecks? (always wondered where the junkers go after the insurance pays off...)...


I'm a big fan of self-service junkyards. Maybe not ideal for a motor or tranny but they are great for all those little things you might want. If you do find one that has a good motor they might help pull it for a fee; depends on the yard. Or bring a couple friends.

You just have to call and ask around locally and go in there. Have a small bag of tools with you and more in the car; any yard-picker worth his salt has what's needed to get the parts off the cars. Many times they'll say "no" on the phone due to insurance + legal stuff but if you show up you're fine. I know a couple good ones in CT and MA but that's kinda far from you. If you can get to Southington CT see Chuck & Eddie - look 'em up.

#13 jmickelct

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 09:03 PM

Roger that....

From New Milford myself, so know the area... am looking at a 2.2 in Waterbury, only $375 but its got 145k on it... I know, I know, "thats not that much for a Sube".... but would very much like to start with something less than 100...



I'm a big fan of self-service junkyards. Maybe not ideal for a motor or tranny but they are great for all those little things you might want. If you do find one that has a good motor they might help pull it for a fee; depends on the yard. Or bring a couple friends.

You just have to call and ask around locally and go in there. Have a small bag of tools with you and more in the car; any yard-picker worth his salt has what's needed to get the parts off the cars. Many times they'll say "no" on the phone due to insurance + legal stuff but if you show up you're fine. I know a couple good ones in CT and MA but that's kinda far from you. If you can you get to Southington CT see Chuck & Eddie - look 'em up.



#14 jmickelct

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 09:07 PM

Roger that....

From New Milford myself, so know the area... am looking at a 2.2 in Waterbury, only $375 but its got 145k on it... I know, I know, "thats not that much for a Sube".... but would very much like to start with something less than 100k...



I'm a big fan of self-service junkyards. Maybe not ideal for a motor or tranny but they are great for all those little things you might want. If you do find one that has a good motor they might help pull it for a fee; depends on the yard. Or bring a couple friends.

You just have to call and ask around locally and go in there. Have a small bag of tools with you and more in the car; any yard-picker worth his salt has what's needed to get the parts off the cars. Many times they'll say "no" on the phone due to insurance + legal stuff but if you show up you're fine. I know a couple good ones in CT and MA but that's kinda far from you. If you can you get to Southington CT see Chuck & Eddie - look 'em up.



#15 grossgary

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 11:30 AM

its got 145k on it... I know, I know, "thats not that much for a Sube"....

even if you got a less than 100k motor you'd still want new timing belts, water pump, oil pump seals etc. 145k vs. 100k on a 2.2 is really nothing, where as on a turbo motor or EJ25 you might think differently. the blocks are likely to be in identical physical condition. i'd keep looking too, but wouldn't rule that one out and would feel perfectly comfortable installing it in my vehicle (with new belts, pump, seals, etc) .

#16 jmickelct

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 02:39 PM

Yeah... thats kind of where I'm heading...

A bit pissed that I'll be walking away from the $700+ that I just put into the 2.5 (TB, water pump, most all of the idlers..etc....), will try to get back in and yank and see if I can get something for em through here..

Any chance that the water pump would be the same, 2.2, 2.5?

Will definately put in an oil pump (learned my lesson!..) et al.... though may try to get by until Spring (or at least a warm patch...).

Feels like the leaky rear strut on my Impreza just blew out last night... so am getting the hints to get busy, quick...

If nothing shows by next weekend, will probably drive over to CT...

(think I fit a used engine in the trunk\rear seat of my Impreza)?


even if you got a less than 100k motor you'd still want new timing belts, water pump, oil pump seals etc. 145k vs. 100k on a 2.2 is really nothing, where as on a turbo motor or EJ25 you might think differently. the blocks are likely to be in identical physical condition. i'd keep looking too, but wouldn't rule that one out and would feel perfectly comfortable installing it in my vehicle (with new belts, pump, seals, etc) .






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