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Radius and camber modification...


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53 replies to this topic

#1 Phizinza

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 09:10 PM

Well, I've been wanting to modifiy my front suspension for quite a while now.
See, the first problem I wanted to fix was the positive camber. This really got on my nerve when I went out and spent $700 on tyres just to have 2mm burnt off the right hand sides outter edge after trying to get a gap in the traffic.. Then I found out that the negative radius which is caused by the shock absorber angle was making the positive camber about 15degrees at full lock I really started looking into options... This angle is also the reason the old subies break beads while doing donuts in the sand...

So... I finally got my head around it and with the help of my brother (welding) and Matt's idea on AUSubaru, not that I followed exactly what he done, but it gave me the idea of using the later arms.

Anyway, heres the link to my article on my site.. Too much for me to copy and paste here. http://offroadingsub...ol_arm_mod.html


Also let me know how you like the new top left pictures :)

Make sure you read all the "NOTES:" at the bottom, as it will probably asnwer a few of your questions.

I plan to add camber adjusters to my control arms to maybe get a little bit better camber, as this mod ended up with still positive..

#2 suberdave

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 10:19 PM

nice work

-=Suberdave=-
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#3 Phizinza

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 10:29 PM

I thought it might make the steering heavier (I was trying to come up with why subaru made it so "stupidly") but it didn't make much of a difference at all. I still run no power steering and it's quite alright.

As for how tough it is...
Day after I done it I went on a trip to a town that is has a great dune trail which is about a 400km drive there and then 400km back. Plus about 100km off beach and dune offroading. I got the front wheels in the air a few times and the I reckon all four up on one perticular dune hill. Got some video so I guess thats what I will be doing next (editing.) No stress cracks in the welds that I can see. And it looks seems good. I had to bash a few more spots to stop rubbing, the body right in front of the hub was getting rubbed by the tire at full lock and cut the front of the fenders.

Other then all that... Not quite sure what else.
Any questions, please ask :)

#4 Phizinza

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 06:45 PM

nice work

Thanks. Although most of the work (welding) was done by my brother..
It's amazing how fast I can take corners now. I'll have to test the car on a perticular strech of road so I can compare speed vs before the mod. I'll update on that. And soon I will be AWDing it! Woohoo!

Just thought I'd add a taste of what I done. Here are two pics.
Posted Image
Posted Image

#5 del

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 07:07 PM

the camber ajustment kit, looks promising. never seen where i can get one though, any ideas in the us.

del

#6 daeron

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 10:55 PM

the camber ajustment kit, looks promising. never seen where i can get one though, any ideas in the us.

del


Make it, like he did :lol:

#7 torxxx

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 09:53 PM

couldnt you do about the same effect to camber if you used some sort of strut shim on the top? seems like you could tilt the strut a little bit and get the same result without cutting into a control arm.

I dont like the idea of cutting into a control arm (unless it was gonna be straight custom A arm or somethin.) I could see what would happen.. -40F outside, hit a pothole or a curb and you just snapped a control arm

#8 Phizinza

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 03:03 AM

couldnt you do about the same effect to camber if you used some sort of strut shim on the top? seems like you could tilt the strut a little bit and get the same result without cutting into a control arm.

I dont like the idea of cutting into a control arm (unless it was gonna be straight custom A arm or somethin.) I could see what would happen.. -40F outside, hit a pothole or a curb and you just snapped a control arm

I understand what you are on about. I was very untrusting in these until I got at least 1ft of air under the front wheels while offroading (BTW, I packed the old parts just in case I broke anything) I checked the welds and there are no stress marks or cracks at all.. It looks tougher then the originals. But I'll leave it up to you on what you want to think.

You could, if you cut the whole strut tower and and re made it. The thing is I really didn't care about the camber. It's the fact that the radius angle is so **** on EA81's that you would need to move the top of the strut 55-60mm backwards to get the same results as I did. But then you also wouldn't get the better entry angle I have and the room for another 2 to 3 inches on your tire size.

If you just want to correct the camber on a non body lifted EA81, yes, you just need to slot the holes for the two strut bolts and move the strut into the car. But whats the point of doing that cos as soon as you turn you get massive positive camber on the wrong wheel to have it on..

As it is right now I have about 9mm of room to move my strut tops inwards and that is with my rear EA82 spring conversion. Not enough unless I change the strut tops.. Which I did have plans for, but this seemed to fix all the problems these old cars have with front susspension..

#9 slideshow86

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 05:35 AM

I come from the land of drifing. I drive an 86 toyota corolla gts aswell as my gl10. This is what we do. You do need teflon lined (and correct weight load) hymejoints. Im just not sure how much stress it could handle. Just wanted to throw this idea out there

http://www.battleversion.com/

On the top right theres an AE86 product page, click on that,
On the next page, on the top left is the "weld on kit for lower control arm"

But like I said I dont know how much load it will handle. I know it does wonders with almost all converted rubber bushings to hymejoints, in the drift car. As if the ride in the roo wasnt already stiff lol.

#10 Phizinza

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 05:55 AM

I come from the land of drifing. I drive an 86 toyota corolla gts aswell as my gl10. This is what we do. You do need teflon lined (and correct weight load) hymejoints. Im just not sure how much stress it could handle. Just wanted to throw this idea out there

http://www.battleversion.com/

On the top right theres an AE86 product page, click on that,
On the next page, on the top left is the "weld on kit for lower control arm"

But like I said I dont know how much load it will handle. I know it does wonders with almost all converted rubber bushings to hymejoints, in the drift car. As if the ride in the roo wasnt already stiff lol.

That's very interesting.. Probably wouldn't need to cut the control arms like I did if you just done that. It looks sterdy enough.

#11 Scott F

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 10:12 PM

How much can you lengthen the LCA without over extending the DOJ? If I keep my BRAT for a long time, I will build some custom arms, or maybe an A-arm conversion.

#12 daeron

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 10:48 PM

for that matter, are the control arms still holding up well? :-p

Another option for welding the "new" control arm back together that might work better would be to use two pieces of channel steel at 3/4", or about 20mm, at whatever length seems appropriate. (You've actually seen how long you arm is, I haven't.) Set each angle on either top side of the control arm, then cut a middle plate, weld all pieces into place.. Maybe match it with some similar steel bracing underneath, and you should be stronger than original. Heavier, but its unsprung weight, so its not like adding ten pounds to each wheel or anything.

Not that I doubt the sturdiness of your job; it looks great. I only mentioned it in case anyone else out there was on the fence, and unsure about the strength of that thing. :grin:

#13 86BRATMAN

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 10:49 PM

any ideas on exactly how much this would extend the wheels out on an unlifted vehicle, i'm interested on matt's aproach to it as well without cutting the control arm, but he doesn't have nearly as much of a write up as you

i'm also thinking that it could allow for the use of ea82t 25 spline axles with my ej swap

#14 Phizinza

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 07:19 PM

Arms are great still.. Although they haven't seen much driving since my mudding about 5 weeks ago. They coped with being air bourn a few times and soon they will have to cope with my driving with AWD and a EJ22 (eheheheh.) I'll update when they break, but some how I get the feeling I'll be selling this car before then, or maybe my grand children will be driving it, I'll tell them to update you should I?

If you use uncut ones then you will need to bring the top of the knuckle out about 1.5" or so. This would get complecated as there is no where near that room on the strut tower. Although if you did do this somehow you can just use EA82 drive shafts and it should work no worries. But if I were to do anything like this for a offroader rig, I would do complete custom double wish bone with a 8"+ lift (t-cased) and use either EA82 drive shafts or maybe 6" extended ones. Well probably get some hubs and brakes from a bigger truck and then use some better driveshafts from it. Subarus just have tiny driveshafts...

I can't see how you could make this arm of mine any stronger without just adding more steel. I would say it is more strong then the original, but take what ever opinion you wish, I don't mind.

#15 Phizinza

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 07:22 PM

any ideas on exactly how much this would extend the wheels out on an unlifted vehicle, i'm interested on matt's aproach to it as well without cutting the control arm, but he doesn't have nearly as much of a write up as you


I cut 30mm or there about out of the arm, and it makes it just a tiny bit longer then the EA81 arm. So you would be looking at the bottom of the hub out about 30mm wider. This would make for what looks to be 5-10 degrees of negative camber.. 1-2 degrees is good for road handling.

#16 carfreak85

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 01:18 AM

This would make for what looks to be 5-10 degrees of negative camber.. 1-2 degrees is good for road handling.


Is this what you're running on your brat? How much would you remove to acheive 1-3* neg camber?

#17 Phizinza

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 02:02 AM

Is this what you're running on your brat? How much would you remove to acheive 1-3* neg camber?

I am running the EA82 arms with 28mm removed. This gives the car 0degrees of camber. The problem right now is because cutting isn't 100% accurate, my left wheel has about 1 degree positive camber and the right has a tiny bit of negative, .5 degrees maybe? I am going to be installing camber adjuster cams that I am making in the next couple of weeks, I'll update on that.
If you want a handling machine and don't care about tire wear I would cut out 26mm's and install some kinda of camber adjuster. This will give you a wide range of camber to choice from. probably +2 to -6 at a guess.

#18 daeron

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 02:09 AM

Cool, I just wanted to bump for an update. Maybe I should've been more polite when I did so, my bad :grin:

For the record, I agree with you, I was just making some noise while thinking about it myself. I've been watching you build the suspension, and the transmission, for this brat of yours (brumby, i suppose) and making it into an impressive beast, and I likey.. I hope I didn't give the wrong impression :rolleyes::lol:

#19 Phizinza

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 02:23 AM

Nah, that's cool. I'm glad you are bringing up new ideas that we can talk about. Theres always a better way around something. I know my method is crude and most likely illegal in every country and state. And the problem with it is it looks modified. If we could come up with something you really couldn't tell that it wasn't stock, that would be great. Kinda like using one of those slideshow86 showed us. But I don't think that would be good in the dirt. So maybe we can come up with an a-arm setup that looks original? Hmm.

#20 daeron

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 02:28 AM

Whatever custom A-arm setup we make.. HAS to be made out of old bedframe rails though.

JUST for the street cred :lol:

#21 casioqv

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 12:31 PM

Then I found out that the negative radius which is caused by the shock absorber angle was making the positive camber about 15degrees at full lock I really started looking into options.


By radius do you mean caster angle? Does the subaru really have positive caster from the factory? That would be entirely pointless, I wonder why they would do such a thing. It would make the car wear tires faster, understeer, and feel unstable on the freeway.

So can the factory camber and caster problems be fixed just by ovaling out the holes in the front strut tower, and moving the top strut mount as far inward and forward as possible (if the vehicle is at the stock height)?

#22 PoorManzImpreza

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 05:00 PM

Positive castor angle is a good thing... It helps turn in by creating negative camber while the wheel turns and assists postive centering of the steering.. This is why jdm sti spec c vehicles handle so much better than base stis (although I think USDM 2k5 and on stis had these arms as well) the lower control arms are longer and the ball joint postion is more forward thus giving a wider track more negative camber and more postive castor. This is what Phizinza is trying to do with this mod..
It takes way more than ovaling out the strut top mounts as you still have the big top hat bushing hole to deal with..

great job Phizinza and personally I think your fabrication should be plenty strong..

#23 casioqv

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 01:12 AM

Positive castor angle is a good thing...


You're right, I was mixed up on the definition of positive and negative caster. If you interchange them in my previous post, you will see what I meant and what I was asking.

#24 Phizinza

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 01:28 AM

By radius I do mean caster. It is both the same thing, and I just call it radius as that is what the radius rod is called on the Subaru's.

If stock form with the back torsion bar right the way up you can see the struts at leaning forwards, this creates Negative radius/caster, this is bad, as at full lock you will get about 13degrees of positive camber on the wheel taking the weight... VERY BAD... (I'm no expert, this is just how I see it.)

If you don'e want to touch the control arm. You will have to get new shockers with springs more like the rear EA82 springs and a smaller top hat for the strut. Then weld a plate into the top of the strut tower and drill a set of new holes I would say about 35 - 40mm backwards and 5 to 8mm inwards. But I am not sure on exactly what the measurements should be..

Basicly, you want your shocker leaning backwards or completely upright, and you want your camber at 0degrees or a little negative. The EA81 is completely opersite to that. I have no idea why, it just seems pointless. The EA82's have pretty much upright caster/radius, so I guess Subaru leanrt their leasson.

#25 Phizinza

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 08:03 PM

Update....

Now that I have pulled the engine and gearbox out of my roo
http://offroadingsub..._underneath.jpg
I have found that the right hand radius/caster rod was fairly loose on the control arm... Maybe another reason why the car had some ever changing steering pull. That and http://offroadingsubarus.com/images/ea81_suspension_mount_broken.jpg wouldn't help.......




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