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Radius and camber modification...


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53 replies to this topic

#26 86BRATMAN

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 09:24 PM

yeah torn rubber can do that to ya, I can't tell, what car is that in the first picture?

#27 Phizinza

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 09:48 PM

The silver one, or the red one?

Red one is my Brumby/Brat
The silver one is my brothers Fiat X1/9, or should I say ONE of my brothers X1/9's....

If you thought a AWD Subaru handled good... Think again, these mid engine RWD X1/9's turn so good, pitty they are let down by a 76hp 1300 or a 85hp 1500... But his 1300 is soon to have lots more power :)

#28 86BRATMAN

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 10:02 PM

The silver one, or the red one?

Red one is my Brumby/Brat
The silver one is my brothers Fiat X1/9, or should I say ONE of my brothers X1/9's....

If you thought a AWD Subaru handled good... Think again, these mid engine RWD X1/9's turn so good, pitty they are let down by a 76hp 1300 or a 85hp 1500... But his 1300 is soon to have lots more power :)


yeah the silver one is what i meant, i knew it was something we haven't got over here, its a very interesting looking rear end, have any other pictures

#29 Phizinza

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 10:04 PM

Click the underlined text, it's links to his site...

He talks to lots of people about the X1/9's in the USA, just check out http://www.network54.com/Forum/12159/

#30 86BRATMAN

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 10:20 PM

hmmm, car looked more new age in the picture, i've seen a few of them now that i know what the whole car looks like, never knew what they were

#31 Phizinza

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 10:23 PM

hmmm, car looked more new age in the picture, i've seen a few of them now that i know what the whole car looks like, never knew what they were

The design was first shown to Fiat in 69... Get that... Imagine what it looked like in 76 (or was it 74) when they came out.!

#32 970subaru

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 11:13 PM

Whatever custom A-arm setup we make.. HAS to be made out of old bedframe rails though.

JUST for the street cred :lol:

LOL
I just took a bunch of those off a friend who was moving and getting rid of a bunch of crap. I was like hell yeah, free angle iron.:lol:
cool stuff youve done there phizinza.

#33 Phizinza

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 06:51 PM

This is copied from my Brumby conversion page:

Yesterday we worked more on the camber adjusters. I still need to put washers with cut outs in them in between the rubber and the 'cam' (in the 22mm hole I drilled basicly) so the rubber on the control arms don't die. Heres some pictures.
http://offroadingsub....uttingcams.jpg
http://offroadingsub....er_kit_cam.jpg
http://offroadingsub....ding_final.jpg
Top one is cutting the discs using a lathe on thread cutting speed and an angle grinder. I would of used a cut off bit in the lathe but the tow ball I used was such hard steel the bit could not take the heat so it was doing more cutting to the bit instead of the ball. The angle grinder worked a treat though!

I will expline it in a bit more detail now.
Basiclly the cam (round discs with offset holes) can rotate and change the distance the bottom of the hub is sticking out which if it sticks out more it means you get more negative camber. Then when done up tight it acts as a washer and holds the bolt in the set position. Using a 22mm hole in the crossmember means I gain either 6mm inwards or 6mm outwards adjustment. This should allow me to set both wheels at around 1 to 3 degrees negtive camber. My car still needs a wheel alignment...

For the radius rods I had to add a sleve through the rubber joints at the gearbox crossmember because the nuts didn't have anything to tighten up on, this cause one nut to come loose... bad thing.

The sleves just squeezed in between the rubber and rod, thus allowing the nuts to do up tight on them. Sorry, I forgot how long I cut them. Something like 40mm? hmm

They are a little hard to adjust, but I think they will hold so once it's set I shouldn't have to touch it until I change the suspension or something..

#34 86BRATMAN

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 09:29 PM

Sounds very similar to the adjustments on the back of the legacy's and impreza's stuff.

#35 Phizinza

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 09:35 PM

Sounds very similar to the adjustments on the back of the legacy's and impreza's stuff.

I haven't looked at that. When I get my Liberty on blocks I'll have look at it's rear setup.
The EJ's use the cam bolt design on the lower shocker mouning don't they? Pitty you can't keep the 4 stud and use that design. Oh well, my car's suspension is at the point where I wanted it know. I just hope it doesn't break.

#36 86BRATMAN

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 09:44 PM

Yeah. The upper of the two lower strut mounts is cam bolt for camber mods.

#37 Phizinza

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 09:49 PM

Still, I even with a 5 stud conversion on a Brat, you still have crazy stupid suspension angles. I recommend anyone with a EA81 car to do something like I have. It is soo much better sand drifting and even better with onroad handling.

#38 Phizinza

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 08:55 PM

Just an update on things..

The bolts on my camber adjusters (the bolt that holds the a arm on) came loose twice, the second time it almost even came out.. Not fun.
That second time I wasn't sure what it was. What it would do is my steering wheel was pointing to the right on a straight. Then go around a corner and it's pointing straight. Then I would feel a bit of a thump and the steering was off to the right. My brother told me to check all the bolts on the steering ans suspension. And sure enough it was loose again. So I'm going to either put a double lock nut setup on it or a spring wash like I should of in the beggining..

I just thought I'd let you know how it's been going.. Seems more peopel are worried about safty on these kind of mods.
You just have to do it right the first time. I hope all my stupid experience will help people do similar things properly the first time..

#39 daeron

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 06:36 PM

Just an update on things..

I just thought I'd let you know how it's been going.. Seems more peopel are worried about safty on these kind of mods.
You just have to do it right the first time. I hope all my stupid experience will help people do similar things properly the first time..


Cool, thanks for the update.

the more miles you log, the more peace of mind you earn. Awesome to hear she is still holding up strong. I think the welds are liable to be the primary "concern" point; and it sounds like they havent even made you bat an eye at them.

#40 Phizinza

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 07:16 PM

I'm going on a 4 day offroad trip to an adventure park tomorrow, which is about 300km away from me.. So after that I'll give another update. With lots of pictures :grin:

#41 Phizinza

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 11:03 PM

Well.. you can see my pictures in the "Trails" forum if you want.

It held up, but it keeps ajusting it's self. This is because on the control arm, engine crossmemeber side, the metal sleeve the bolt goes through isn't in contact with the engine crossmember anymore. I tried using cut washers to fix this, but somehow they popped out, not good. I think this camber adjuster kit style is just limited. So I am planning on putting a stock engine crossmember in, then making/modfiying new control arms.
I'm working on their design now, more when I have it all up and working. Time for a trip to the wreckers yard for more parts and investigation on other cars..
Just if I could put in IFS 4x4 6 lug hubs from something along with bigger CV's and double wishbone. Ohwell, I'll settle with homemade control arms.

#42 daeron

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 05:34 AM

Well.. you can see my pictures in the "Trails" forum if you want.

It held up, but it keeps ajusting it's self. This is because on the control arm, engine crossmemeber side, the metal sleeve the bolt goes through isn't in contact with the engine crossmember anymore. I tried using cut washers to fix this, but somehow they popped out, not good. I think this camber adjuster kit style is just limited. So I am planning on putting a stock engine crossmember in, then making/modfiying new control arms.
I'm working on their design now, more when I have it all up and working. Time for a trip to the wreckers yard for more parts and investigation on other cars..
Just if I could put in IFS 4x4 6 lug hubs from something along with bigger CV's and double wishbone. Ohwell, I'll settle with homemade control arms.


To quote the Grateful Dead.. "just keep truckin on......"

I wish I had the incredible chassis engineering brain you've got. Not just anyone can eyeball this kind of stuff and say "gee, lets just make this.." then just make it, and have it work.. even if your current setup IS having problems, I LOVE the way you just casually say "so yah.. i gotta, just.. build me some control arms..."

People DO it all the time.. but most of those people aren't blazing new trails. And I doubt ANYONE else is out there Blazing new trails for an almost 30 year old car...

Rock on, phiz.. can't wait to see the Mark Two. :headbang:

#43 del

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 07:28 AM

Phizinza

I have a thought. Subaru gave us no camber adjustment. Set your camber and then weld the cam/washers to the cross member, making a solid cross member once again. I know in old BMWs thats what you had to do to set the rear camber when you lowered them, if you did not weld them they self adjusted.
hope this helps.
cheers
del

#44 Phizinza

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 07:39 PM

Phizinza

I have a thought. Subaru gave us no camber adjustment. Set your camber and then weld the cam/washers to the cross member, making a solid cross member once again. I know in old BMWs thats what you had to do to set the rear camber when you lowered them, if you did not weld them they self adjusted.
hope this helps.
cheers
del


It's a good idea, but.
First the major problem I am having is that now I have huge wholes in the engine crossmember the metal sleeve in the rubber bushing doesn't touch each side of the crossmember or the new cam's have made. Plus, silly me, didn't look over the whole camber adjuster thing 5 times before I started drilling and welding them on. So, my left wheel is still positive camber, which is far from ideal.
Also another problem is the rubber bushings are at an unhappy angle. This is because we only shortened the arm, not angled it. And without any angle change they should be set to position the wheels 4" further forwards, not the 2" I have. And I want to put the wheels maybe an inch back because my radius/caster is kinda a bit to high... I turn the wheels and I get, quoting my brother, "uber sick ricer steering." Or in other words, wheels that have LOTS of negative camber when only at 1 rotation of the steering wheel.

So it looks like I'm back to the drawing board. Still need to get to the wreckers for parts before I can do anything.
And I'm sure as hell not going back to stock. That's just a stupid setup. These old cars need adjusterble camber and caster because they either weren't made straight or they are bent now. Plus with a setup that gives huge positive camber at full lock, well thats just dumb as far as I can see.

#45 Phizinza

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 09:31 AM

Progress is being made on the control arm mod. This time I'm making them the right length (both quite different, car must be all bent and twisted) and not using camber adjusters. But I still have the caster adjusters.

I'll explain how we have made the new arms (just modded EA82 ones again) tomorrow maybe, it's late and I gotta head to bed now. It involved rulers, levels, paper, pencils, and some math... Plus an angle grinder, mig welder, drill and a foot or two of 40mm wide bar steel... I'll explain later. Oh, looks like I'll need those EA82 shafts now as well.

#46 discopotato03

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 09:36 PM

Hi Phiz , I'm also Australian (in Sinn City NSW) and want to do something better than std for my 86 RX Turbo L series .

I have the CrossBred kit for the 5 stud conversion so i'll be using first gen Liberty uprights and brakes (same model rear as well) .

If you know what the std L-RX front geometry angles are like I need to know . Basically I want to use Bilstein front dampers , either a liberty one with the spring seat removed and a circlip seat mount or a coilover conversion with a cartridge insert to the std Liberty leg .

I found that Nolathane (and a few others) make adjustable strut tops for the Impreza and these bolt into the L series 3 hole strut tower . They have a spherical joint BUT its suspended in urathanme so you don't get the rapid wear and tat tap agro like the ricer cars do . I had a Nissan DR30RS with these solid type tops - NEVER again . I doubt I'll get as much caster adjustment as I need because these tops are set up primarily for more camber than caster adjustment . I think we can re jig and alter this

The caster rods (compression rods) in these cars make it reasonably easy to push the upright forward for a little more positive caster so between the tops and rods hopefully it'll be enough . One thing I don't want to do is screw up the drive shaft angles so the more backwards the top can go the better .

The reason I'm doing this is because I want more dynamic caster change when the wheels are turned so that it actually grips on both sides rather than drag the outer third of the inside wheel across the road . So basicaly I need the outside wheel cambre to go negative and the inside to go positive when cornering to put all the rubber on the road . I like my cars to have zero camber when the wheels are straightened up for maximum grip under driving and braking loads .

I'm getting a fellow I know who breathes suspension to come up with spring and anti roll bar rates and he's a whiz at getting Bilsteins revalved to suit the spring rates . I found that L series anti roll bar D bushes are same as early Liberty and Impreza so plenty available for different thickness bars .

Cheers all , A .

#47 Phizinza

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 11:36 PM

G'day.
The L-series (EA82 for those that don't know what us Aussies are talking about) are relatively upright caster from factory. But the Camber is still positive at stock ride hight. Do you want to lower the car? I get the feeling (not really sure though) that if you lower it a bit, say 2 inches, you might correct your camber. And if your using Liberty (or Legacy as they are in the US) uprights (knuckles) you will get the camber adjuster bolt between the shocker and upright. This will be able to fine adjust it I would think. At stock, I think it's 1.5degrees positive camber for your car. Although, my Brumby was so bent it seems that one side was near 2degrees while the other was going on 4! I reckon for high speed cornering in one of these old cars you will want the bottom about 1 to 1.5 inches further forwards from vertical, but that's just a guess. I'm really just aiming for longer tyre life and slightly better cornering, that's why I've only gone a little positive camber this time. With adjustable strut tops, camber bolt adjusters and adjustable caster rods (radius rods) I think you'll be able to set it up to the optimum cornering performance.

#48 discopotato03

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 02:47 AM

I'd like to keep this car at its std ride height and move the strut around to improve the geometry .

Yes I think the Lib upright top bolt allows for about 1/2 deg either way probably for factory height and alignment variation .

Cheers A .

#49 Phizinza

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Posted 11 June 2007 - 01:12 AM

Sorry for the delay.. I've been very busy.

So the different things I done this time round were... Use math...

Ok, it's a little more complicated then that.

First thing I noticed this time round is the left wheel is quite a bit further out then the right on is. This must be due to the strut tower being bent or something.
I also made sure I cut the arms with some angle so the bushings would sit right and I could stay at only a little positive caster/radius.

With the "new" un-modified engine crossmember and the old control arms in place we measured a 150mm vertical on the flat inner part of the wheel. We then used a small right angle ruler lever and another steel rule to figure out how much the wheel needed the wheel was positive camber. (I have pics of this I'll get later.) Using this measurement, and the measurement of the top of the strut to the bottom of the balljoint, say 5mm out over 150mm = 24mm over 720mm. As in 720 divided by 150 = 4.8 x 5 = 24mm. This ment the arm needed to be 24mm longer then my modified one. Plus it needed an extra 10 degrees facing backwards. So using a peice of paper and a angle tool we figured out that cutting 8 to 9mm out from one sideand leaving the other side connected that the "new" EA82 arm would gain its extra 10degrees and it would have 24mm more then the old modified arm. (this is entirely possible with original EA81 arms in place instead of stupid modified EA82 arms.) So after cutting, bending testing, cutting, testing, welding, testing, reinforcing, welding and testing again it was close enough. Then we done the same on the right side. Which just to let you know how far the left wheel is out of whack with the left it needed 23mm cut out of the new unmodified EA82 arm.

Now it sits very nicely with only a tiny bit negative camber and a tiny bit positive caster. There will be a better write up and all that on my site hopefully before next week. With pictures and all.

And in a borat voice I finish with
GREAT SUCCESS!

#50 Phizinza

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 04:12 AM

Its been a while. I found a problem. Because I couldn't get the CV joint off my EA81 shaft I just used a complete EA82 shaft. The EA82 knuckle uses a bigger seal then the EA81 version, and the EA82 shaft there for won't fit into the EA81 knuckle without destroying the seal. I've found this out the hard way as I didn't look at that when I put it together. Bratman also told me the brake caliper mounts on the EA82 knuckle are different to the EA81 version so it looks like I would need new calipers and knuckles to use the EA82 shaft. For now I just put it back together and am waiting for the bearing to die.. Need money for new parts, so she'll have to get along with two busted seals for now. I have already been on two 400km trips to an offroad park where I've been through deep mud and water. And I've been offroading locally twice where I've done several water crossings. The grease was a bit dirty looking but only a tiny bit of noise with it so far.

Otherwise, the rest of it all is holding up really well. No sign of stress or anything. I still haven't finished the write up on it all, I'll have to get around to that.




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