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28 replies to this topic

#1 NuclearBacon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 08:05 AM

So i was having problems with a wobbling crank pulley on my EJ22T..... the bolt was literally finger loose. Shrugging, I tightened the bolt....to 90 Ftlbs

.....

..........it worked for a day....

....then it wobbled again......... wth the bolt tight...

when i went to remove the bolt again... the bolt sheered inside the crank leaving me 6 threads out of 12 on the bolt i removed...

...thats when i threw up a little.

so .....let me tell you my plan.

i have the bolt that sheered... im going to grind it down, make it pretty....

then put my new woodruff key in, with a new/used crank pully i got from the junkyard off of a 90 Legacy EJ22..... put everything together, and screw the bolt in with a bit of loctite on it (not the top strength stuff, but the next level down stuff)

...i mean, im a student.... this is my daily driver, besides my GL-10 (which needs new front wheel bearings me thinks) and i dont want to replace the crank. jesus what a nightmare that would be...... i mean, if i werent a student and had a nice shop.... oh! and another vehicle, and this one was my fun project...

So. Opinions. Please.

i figure the bolt will not touch the piece thats still in the crank, i'll be able to tighten it down, and although i dont have the extra threads in the crank, the loctite should take care of the hold.

:Flame: grrrrrr

#2 johnceggleston

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 08:33 AM

i doubt it.

the pulley wobbled because the bolt was lose. that means the piece thats in the car is not in far enough. even if you grind down the remaining piece to clear it, how is it going to hold?

but what have you got to lose.?

#3 NuclearBacon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 09:20 AM

the pulley wobbled because the woodruff key ate a groove into the pulley and there was no more keyway in the pulley.

the bolt was all the way in.... and you're right :)

what have i to lose :)

#4 WAWalker

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 10:16 AM

Probably won't hold.

If the end of the crank is worn from the pully wobble the new used one will not be centered and will not spin true and will cause another failure.

Best thing to do is to get broken bolt out of crank shaft and install one of these.

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#5 grossgary

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 11:30 AM

if the crank isn't marred up (like he just mentioned), it has the possibility to work. i would not have thought twice about trying it while i was in college. i would get a tap and die and make sure the threads on your "new" shorter bolt and the threads in the crank are crystal clean. i'd want to be able to spin that thing on there by hand effortlessly. then tighten that mo-fo. it's not aluminum, i use a 3 foot long pipe and put all i got into it when i tighten mine, so i'm betting it can and will hold depending how much good thread is left.

#6 NuclearBacon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 05:36 PM

Probably won't hold.

If the end of the crank is worn from the pully wobble the new used one will not be centered and will not spin true and will cause another failure.

Best thing to do is to get broken bolt out of crank shaft and install one of these.


So... do you have a machine shop that you made those studs in? thats pretty cool, but man, if thers another problem, that woodruff key wont do its job, and EVERYTHING will be torn up....

if i had an EJ22, i wouldnt be stressing so much, but, there arent too many EJ22T's out in the junkyard if you catch my drift.....

..........about to head outside and see what ive got...

#7 WAWalker

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 05:57 PM

Yes, I make those her at the shop. When this happens to a customers car I take no chances when putting it back together.

The woodruff keys job is only to properly align the timing belt drive sprocket on the crankshaft to ensure proper cam timing. It is not intended to carry any load. The force of the crank bolt, when installed and properly torqued, clamping the pully and timing belt drive sproket to the crankshaft is what takes the load.

This problem occures after the crank bolt has been removed and not properly torqued after reinstallation.

Once there is any damage to the end of the crank shaft were the front pully rides, a new pully is not going to fit tight and there will be imbalance when the engine is running. This imbalance can and most offten will cause another failure. The dowel pins between the timing belt sprocket and front pully eliminates this imbalance, as the timing belt sprocket fits fully over the crank shaft were there is no wear, and the dowel pins support and center the pully.

Getting the broken bolt out of the crank shaft is not an easy task but, on an EJ22 Turbo, would be well worth the work.

#8 NuclearBacon

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 09:15 PM

Thanks WAWalker for your input! great information!

i completly agree on the amount of work... but my father had an idea of getting a reverse drill bit. the bolt was just recently out. i thought if i were to get the reverse drill bit, and bite down on the part of the bolt still in there, i might be able to back it out.....

eventually, this engine will be pulled and COMPLETLY overhauled, this engine is now mine til death :), so im not too worried about it. i took some pics of the front of the crank, and it looks hardly marred at all... if any. this pics i have are super high res, so i'll get them on here asap.

..... im less worried then i was though. i have options, and the red wagon will live again!!!!!!!!

#9 WoodsWagon

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 11:55 AM

Is the center of the pully wobbling, or is the outer part wobbling when you look at it when it's idling? There's a rubber part in the middle, and if someone has been prying on the pully to get it off the crank, it can get shifted. The center part is still fine on the crank, but the outer part where the belts ride wobbles back and forth.

#10 operose

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 03:46 PM

just wanted to say that loctite on a crank pulley bolt holds fine. I had an EJ22 pulley that the key completely sheared in half and trashed the end of the crank. I put the pully back on so it would have been lined up had there been a key, and torqued the ever loving $%!* out of the bolt with some loctite on it.

when my waterpump bearings ate themselves, I heated up the end of the crank with a torch:Flame: ( :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:) and the bolt came right out.

#11 NuclearBacon

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 04:51 PM

just wanted to say that loctite on a crank pulley bolt holds fine. I had an EJ22 pulley that the key completely sheared in half and trashed the end of the crank. I put the pully back on so it would have been lined up had there been a key, and torqued the ever loving $%!* out of the bolt with some loctite on it.

when my waterpump bearings ate themselves, I heated up the end of the crank with a torch:Flame: ( :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:) and the bolt came right out.


...brilliant.

That made my weekend. THANKS!!!!

#12 operose

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 09:18 AM

forgot to say that I put a few thousand miles on that car after that before retiring it for issues unrelated, and was so confident in that car that if I'd had the money, I would've tried driving it to california and back.

but I told my girlfriend everyday "you never know when this damn crank pulley is going to let loose, come flying through the hood, and strand us in the middle of Deliverance, Upstate New York" :clap:

#13 johnceggleston

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 02:31 PM

"you never know when this damn crank pulley is going to let loose, come flying through the hood, and strand us in the middle of Deliverance, Upstate New York" :clap:



usually the pulley will wobble before it falls off.

#14 ericem

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 03:23 PM

If it does fall off, you will still make it home, dont worry, just no AC or alternator, or power steering, but then its not worth driving :lol:

#15 operose

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 02:39 PM

usually the pulley will wobble before it falls off.



well I wouldn't have seen her wobblin from inside the car on a 500mile drive!

#16 NuclearBacon

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 01:08 AM

what about some way to weld the end of a rod onto the broken part, then using a wrench, backing out the left over. could... that work?

#17 NuclearBacon

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Posted 30 January 2007 - 01:45 AM

i managed to find a set of Left-handed drill bits... for those of you (like me) who have never heard of these, the idea is to run your drill in reverse. these bits have a reverse helix and while you drill INTO the broken screw, it should bite into it and reverse the broken part out. No idea if this will work, or if i should drive it a mile away and see if someone at a machine shop can do something for me.

any suggestions or opinions??? i have the day off tomorrow (tuesday), gimmie some direction!!! oh MIGHTY MINDS OF THE USMB!!!!!

#18 WAWalker

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Posted 30 January 2007 - 10:50 AM

The left hand bit is a very good idea. The big thing when trying to drill out a broken bolt is to dill it in the center. If the bit doesn't grab and turn the broken peice out you will want to continue to drill through the bolt, and try an extractor. If the extractor dosen't work, your last chance is to drill as much of the bolt out, as close to the threads as possible. Hear is where it is improtant that your first hole is in the center of the bolt. Once you have drill as big as you can without getting into the threads, you can use a pick to chip what is left of the bolt threads away. Once you can get a tap started it is then a matter of carfully and slowly truning the tap in and backing it out little by little to remove the rest of the bolt threads. Don't try and run the tap all the way in right away.

Good Luck

#19 nipper

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Posted 30 January 2007 - 10:10 PM

just wanted to say that loctite on a crank pulley bolt holds fine. I had an EJ22 pulley that the key completely sheared in half and trashed the end of the crank. I put the pully back on so it would have been lined up had there been a key, and torqued the ever loving $%!* out of the bolt with some loctite on it.

when my waterpump bearings ate themselves, I heated up the end of the crank with a torch:Flame: ( :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:) and the bolt came right out.


Well just make sure you use the proper loctite. get the wrong color and it will never come off.

nipper

#20 NuclearBacon

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 12:57 PM

WOW! Lets do an update!!!! So from what i remember, i had JUST gotten the reverse thread bolt taker-outers. So while i did everything through a mirror placed at 45 degrees (so i could see down the crank without taking the condenser out) The reverse thread guys didnt work because i didnt have enough screw left inside the crank.

When i looked down inside, i could see part of the bolt, and what looked like the other side... this was not the case. It was the slight thickness that gave the crank its threads... so i proceeded to spend at least 2 solid, backbreaking days trying to unscrew nothingness.....

moving on...

I then thought, ok i can saw the bolt... get it out in pieces... so i went to my trusty grinding wheel and band-saw, cut a handheld hacksaw handle down to about 6 inches, and cut a hacksaw blade in half... then i grinded the top of the blade so the entire body was only about 3/8" thick (or wide i guess) so it could fit inside (4 inches deep) the crank.... and so the sawing began....

and went... and went for a long long time. we're talking almost 60-70 hours....it was awful... but i love my wagon... and i had NO way of pulling the engine out..... With tears in my eyes and backpain galore, i put a freshly charged battery in the thing and drove it 1 mile to a machine shop. the guy looked at it, looked at me, and he said "i can see the pain in your face, you've been fighting it huh?" "yes... yes i have" " *scratches his head* I just dont feel comfortable taking on this job without the condensor gone." so away i drove, back to the house, for more sawing.

2 weeks go by, when i get angry, i go outside and saw a little bit.... and just to gain some appriciation, next time you have your radiator out, and your crank pully out, try to stick a screwdriver (gently hehe) into the crank snout. then try to see how comfortable it is to move it back and forth about 150,000 times.... on your knees.... in the rain.

Finally.... finally finally... i made 6 - 8 cuts into the bolt and i chipped it out... small piece, by small piece. and just because i'm a nerd and for the story's sake, when i'd saw, i'd run a small electromagnet inside the crank to take out the shavings... i then discharged it into a little container. at the end of the sawing.. i weighed the bolt pieces, and the shavings.... and the shavings WAY outweighed the solid pieces. sucks huh...

So the bolt was out!!!!!!! the threads were pretty marred up, but i could still thread my secondary bolt in there with little resistance.... i did pretty good! so i drove it around in town for about 40 miles (2 weeks, one way to go accross my college town is like 3 miles, and i walk a lot of places at school) before i decided its ok. So i decide to make the trip to my folks house (177 miles) and all is going GREAT.........

until mile marker 174.... I get dash lights.... BATTERY, ABS and I lose power steering...... I shut it down immeadiatly and pull off to the side of the road....

i get out and open my hood... and there lays my crank pully on my exhaust manifold.

... A single tear runs down my right cheek...

Seeing as how i'm 3 miles from my folks house, i button up the engine compartment and make a 3 mile dash on battery power to get the car back.....and i make it.

upon further inspection at the house... I see the bolt had Broken.... again. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This time i'm a veteran at getting bolts out of the crank. i get my GOOD drill, and all the tools i brought down with me (ex cub scout baby) and drill that bolt out and spend basically ALL night sawing. this is my transportation back to school on sunday night! i need to get there!!!! in 1 days time (just over 19 hours) the crank is free again.

So i sit and think... what do i do now. Do i get another bolt and crank?... yes i do. Off to PICKAPART!!! YESS!!!! ONE legacy in the lot. whew. Took all morning to get it off, but i got the crank and the bolt...

Then i start thinking.... before i came down on my 177 mile excursion, i made sure my bolt was tight. I remembered hearing a quick but definite "clank" thinking it was the bolt seating against the crank pully..... it all becomes clear...

i had broken my secondary bolt, and drove with it for 174 miles before it let go......

So i call my local subaru dealer and get a BRAND NEW BOLT. Put the car back together, and its been over 5500 miles with no problems. including a trip to oregon to the rally, a race through the hills, then back down (1900 miles) and i dont drive...conservatively....

How bout THAT for some crazyness..... :Flame:*bolt*

#21 uniberp

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 01:45 PM

I never saw such a story in my life.

Except maybe when I locked my keys in the car.
With it running.
And in gear.
Pointed downhill.

#22 nipper

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 01:47 PM

I never saw such a story in my life.

Except maybe when I locked my keys in the car.
With it running.
And in gear.
Pointed downhill.


with a tail wind?


nipper

#23 hankosolder2

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 07:22 PM

I never saw such a story in my life.

Except maybe when I locked my keys in the car.
With it running.
And in gear.
Pointed downhill.


OK, I have a crank pulley story to end all crank pulley stories. This was some years ago. Friend in upstate NY had an '81 Honda Accord with terminal rust but a healthy engine. I bought his engine, brought it back to the Chicago area and went looking for a car to put it in. Bought an '82 Accord with a horked engine. Put the '81 engine in, had to swap over the different style crank pulley from the old '82 engine (V-belt versus serpentine.) I lightly tightened the crank pulley and intended to finish torquing it when I had an assistant to stand on the brake pedal while I tightened the bolt. (Manual trans car) Of course, I forgot. Drove the car 350 miles to college, did a deal with the guy I bought the engine from to buy the "new" car with his old engine in it. The catch was that I had to deliver the car in upstate NY. 150 miles into the NY trip, the pulley flies off...I see it in my rearview as all the dash lights go on at once. Fortunately, I was travelling in convoy.
Find the pulley roadside, but could not find the bolt or the woodruff key. Did I mention that it's cold and dark outside? The only Honda dealer is some miles away and closes at 5...it's about a quarter to five. Drive like a maniac, make the dealership before closing, get the parts, get back. Have the "backup" car idling with the headlights on so I can see what I'm doing as I'm lying on my back...I smell smoke. Missing cat converter heat shield on the convoy car and the grass under it is now smoldering. Moved the car right quick before actual full on fire breaks out. Eventually got the loose pulley car together, but it needed a jump 'cos the hazards had been on for hours. On the road. AT LAST!

Nathan

#24 biglittledog

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 12:30 AM

OK, I have a crank pulley story to end all crank pulley stories... On the road. AT LAST!
Nathan


Holy Crap!
I mean double Holy Crap!!
Those are both amazing stories and you are both tenacious individuals. I probably would have given up long before.

#25 uniberp

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 11:01 AM

OK, I have a crank pulley story to end all crank pulley stories. This was some years ago. Friend in upstate NY had an '81 Honda Accord with terminal rust but a healthy engine. I bought his engine, brought it back to the Chicago area and went looking for a car to put it in. Bought an '82 Accord with a horked engine. Put the '81 engine in, had to swap over the different style crank pulley from the old '82 engine (V-belt versus serpentine.) I lightly tightened the crank pulley and intended to finish torquing it when I had an assistant to stand on the brake pedal while I tightened the bolt. (Manual trans car) Of course, I forgot. Drove the car 350 miles to college, did a deal with the guy I bought the engine from to buy the "new" car with his old engine in it. The catch was that I had to deliver the car in upstate NY. 150 miles into the NY trip, the pulley flies off...I see it in my rearview as all the dash lights go on at once. Fortunately, I was travelling in convoy.
Find the pulley roadside, but could not find the bolt or the woodruff key. Did I mention that it's cold and dark outside? The only Honda dealer is some miles away and closes at 5...it's about a quarter to five. Drive like a maniac, make the dealership before closing, get the parts, get back. Have the "backup" car idling with the headlights on so I can see what I'm doing as I'm lying on my back...I smell smoke. Missing cat converter heat shield on the convoy car and the grass under it is now smoldering. Moved the car right quick before actual full on fire breaks out. Eventually got the loose pulley car together, but it needed a jump 'cos the hazards had been on for hours. On the road. AT LAST!

Nathan


Did you tell the guy you delivered the car to that story? Or did you say "Nope, no problems at all. Ran like a champ."




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