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Oregon Rally Group Rallyx meeting 11/19


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#1 edrach

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Posted 21 November 2003 - 09:01 PM

I had the pleasure of being at the meeting. Jason, Mudrat, and Nels from our group were also there. Here's a quick synopsis of what I got out of the meeting. I encourage feedback on some of the proposals and will post my ideas as soon as I organize them in my mind.

Oregon Rally Group Meeting 11/19/2003

A number of things were discussed including plans for a Rally School in March to be held at the Hillsboro site. A two-day weekend event with instruction for navigators and drivers (including rallycross driving). Looks like a fun weekend; I’m reserving the time as soon as I know more.

Some discussion about getting more people to join SCCA/ORG. A suggestion was made about limiting year-end awards to SCCA members only. No final decisions were made.

Rallycross discussions:

Serious consideration was given to randomized run order within a class to avoid the “stay at the back of the pack” syndrome. Lots of ideas that would be difficult to implement, but the best suggestion seemed to be to have six (or more) lines at the starting grid and randomly direct the order of which line runs 1st, 2nd, etc.

Ideas were tossed about in an effort to get more than 3 runs in per car, per event. Thoughts on shortening the course and limiting the entry somehow were discussed. Most sensible suggestion came from an ORG member saying that the club could be more diligent in sticking to the proposed time schedule and that might be the most practical way to get in more runs per car.

Safety Steward was adamant about there being no “spin cones” in future course designs since they are the most likely to possibly cause a roll-over event. Darn—I was just beginning to get the hang of doing that maneuver. This was one of the few things actually decided at this meeting.

Car modifications were discussed to some degree and it was decided it was too difficult to tech modifications so things were left as they are.

The “Brat problem” was discussed at length. I’m still not sure what the “Brat problem” really is, but it has something to do with how SCCA classifies cars for Club Rally events (which is the basis for the rallycross classifications). Also complicating things is the fact that the older 80’s 4WD wagons can be considered MPVs (i.e. SUVs) and as such can run in the truck/suv class. An un-named Durango owner made the suggestion that the “Brats dominate the class and discourage other cars from competing in that class.” Further it was suggested that Brats (and other similar Subarus) be run in PGT(stock tires) and Open(rally tires) class to allow for Jeeps, Durangos, and “real” trucks to be competitive.

Your thoughts on this are welcome. Suggestions (keep them tactful and constructive) can be made to the current rallycross chairman, Chris Hale, at rallycross@oregonrally.com.

I forgot to mention, that some of these things will be decided and voted on at the December meeting. My thought is to put those decisions off until the January meeting to get away from the holiday distractions.

#2 Qman

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Posted 21 November 2003 - 09:39 PM

The first thing that comes to mind is the actual point system that decides class. ie., engine displacement, AWD/4WD, turbo, non turbo, tires and such. I know for a fact that some of the unnamed protestors are not running in their correct classes.

I understand the complaint about a station wagon running in truck/suv. However, the VIN plate is the registration designator. Any changes made will definitely take away from the class. But, the competition will remain. I sure would like to go to one of these meetings. Maybe the decision meeting will be delayed to Jan. as I would have a new allotment of vacation to use.

I am waiting to see what the postings will be on ORG site to make a complete statement.

#3 edrach

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Posted 21 November 2003 - 09:48 PM

Ken, I think the real problem is that ORG is trying to adhere to the SCCA Club rally classes and decided that the Brat would be best in the Truck/SUV class. I'm personally against moving the Brat to PGT running against turbos and other such more exotic cars (not that it wouldn't be competitive with the right driver). I feel the same about moving the Brat into Open. Realistically, I think the most fair solution would be to split the truck/suv class into two classes. Or leave it alone, the Durango is obviously competitive in that class with the Brats based on the year-end finishes of the only Durango to run the series for the last two years. It did disappoint me that we did manage to chase the Jeeps and "actual" trucks out of the class.

#4 Flowmastered87GL

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Posted 22 November 2003 - 03:17 AM

Hmmm the cars should be moved to Production if anything unless they are turboed. IF subarus get banned from the SUV clsss....My GL should be in Open cause of its mods, Brats really should remain... they have a truck bed AND a truck VIN, if you dont like they way they dominiate get a 4WD pickup and lower it to make it corner like a subaru :-) Stock non turbo subes should be production class (like the Justy already runs) Turbos like Marks RX should be PGT.

I still dont know where I stand on this, but I do think EA series vehicles still have a place in truck/suv. At the VERY least the brat deserves the spot even if they bump us other owners back out.

I prefer to think of my car as a 1987 Forester :D

Just lower and with less power

#5 Flowmastered87GL

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Posted 22 November 2003 - 03:21 AM

Oh, hopefully I wont be so busy during the next meeting so I can voice my opinion too.

#6 Hondasucks

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Posted 22 November 2003 - 04:01 AM

Yeah I need to go to the next meeting as well, to voice some opinions. I think the unnamed driver is just bitter about the Brats since he LOST to one. IMHO he should take his supercharged Durango to Woodburn if he wants to kick some arse, since I've never seen a big, huge, heavy, SUV with lots of power as the ultimate rally vehicle, but to each his own right?

Maybe we should have liek,a mini-ute class, and a full-size SUV class?? Like, group all the Soobs, and import trucks, rangers, S10s, what not together, and then all the full sizes.

#7 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 23 November 2003 - 05:19 PM

I think the classes should be based completely on the drive train, and not on the body.

As to the drive train of a Brat - well it's the same as the wagon, and thus should be in the same class. I do not however know which class that should be. On the one hand the wagon isn't a truck in the normal sense of the word, and the Brat certainly is. Very confusing - maybe they should get rid of the "truck" class completely, and come up with classes based on suspension style, height , and drivetrain. In that respect, the Brat would certainly fall in the same catagory as the wagon, and definately not in the catagory of the rest of the trucks.

This I think would seperate the cars nicely, and you would have more competition, and less complaints about the car not bieng fair. It would all come down to the driver because the cars in each class would be more or less similar in design. Looking at only the engine, and if it's 2WD or 4WD is not enough to catagorize the vehicle. And going by the body styleing is just plain silly I say. No - suspension is the key to catagorizing the vehicles correctly. Combine that with the drive train, and you'll have a winning set of catagories I think.

GD

#8 Flowmastered87GL

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Posted 23 November 2003 - 06:45 PM

Hmmm theres an idea..... large 4WD class and small 4WD class. Do away with truck class. Let 2WD pickups run in group 2 against the 510's and such

#9 edrach

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Posted 23 November 2003 - 08:05 PM

Check the ORG website and check out the classes as they now stand. The Brat (and the wagons too) certainly fit in Truck/SUV. It would be ludricous to move either vehicle into PGT since there is a minimum adjusted displacement of 2650 cc. Even more ludricrous to move them into Open (for the same reason and thensome). Frankly, the Brats (and wagons) are not outclassing the trucks and Durangos because of any inherent advantage in suspension or engine.....it's just that there were almost 12 of them running in the class during the last event (with some pretty good drivers too). And in spite of that, the lone Durango still won the class that day! And on an overall basis, the Durango still came in 2nd for the second time in two years. Granted, that placing was surrounded by Brats but that's only because 6 or more ran for the series. The real key here is not the difference in the cars but the skill of the driver. Show me 6 Durangos with 3 or more year's experience running the series and they'll likely move up in the standings---or force the Brat drivers to get better!

#10 Qman

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Posted 23 November 2003 - 08:25 PM

What are they gonna do when the truck/suv class grows by two more Brats? I know two guys that will be running Brats next year that didn't last year.

Now that will be a BRAT problem! :-\ :boohoo:

I'm sorry but to hear someone whining about Brat's having an advantage over an overpowered SUV is somewhat funny. I know there is more to it but that just seems to stand out more than anything else. There needs to be a compromise of sorts but I don't think we need to lose ground either.

I think the open class will be the next step for the drivers who consistantly win or place 3rd or higher. For competition sake anyway. But let 'em master their class first before booting them to the next level.

#11 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 23 November 2003 - 08:51 PM

Actually - your right - the wagon is sort of an SUV, so I guess they do both fit in the truck class.

However - an '84 sedan wouldn't be either - not a truck, and not an SUV - but again - same running gear. How do you class that?

I just think that the body style of the vehicle should not be part of the designation. Manufacturers thow different body's on the same basic suspension and running gear all the time - those cars that are similar MECHANICALLY should compete. I'm not saying there should be a a minor adjustment here, I'm saying WIPE the slate clean, and make all new catagories based on physics, not sheet metal.

GD

#12 edrach

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Posted 23 November 2003 - 09:05 PM

Can't just wipe the slate clean and re-classify. The problem is that the RallyX classes need to be commensurate with SCCA's classes for the Club and Pro Rally series. There's where part of the problem lies. The rest of the problem is the same as in Open where Subarus also dominate and I don't hear any complaints there.

#13 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 24 November 2003 - 02:39 AM

Maybe we should start our own subaru only rally club, and just thumb our noses at the SCCA. hehe

J/K

The problem is that the RallyX classes need to be commensurate with SCCA's classes



Then I think the SCCA's classes stink. And why is that anyway? Why do we have to be under the control of the SCCA?

Don't mind me - I just like to question things....

This is beginning to look a lot like what has happened to NASCAR. (ie: aren't they supposed to be STOCK cars? Friggin rediculous).

I guess I'm just a typical engineer - engineers don't like it when rules are based on things that have no meaning for the function of the thing being engineered. The sheet metal (except at high speed) provides no function under the conditions of the RallyX. Because of that, I think it's silly to use it in a major classification system.

But whatever - I'll still run of course. I'm just ranting. I probably should have attended to voice these opinions - not that they would have been heard anyway....

GD

#14 edrach

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Posted 24 November 2003 - 09:09 AM

I've been a long time dis-liking SCCA for a number of reasons. However, it's a necessary evil. In our litiginous society, one has to have insurance, and rallycross wouldn't run without the $5M insurance policy that SCCA provides.

#15 ezapar

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Posted 24 November 2003 - 08:27 PM

I'm not scared of Open Class.
Don't care about an award either. I just like the fun. I love the competition too. Mostly the fun. Trust me, I don't drive to friggin' OR to Rally X so I can have a stupid magnet.

Doesn't matter what I drive, I'm gonna be in the Open Class. If I can't beat them, too bad.

You guys are gonna be bummin when I jump into my buddy's brat next year and kick rump roast in your class too.
:D

I do appreciate the SCCA throwing this. As a coordinator for most of the Hatch Patrol's outings, I know what a pain it is. And that's on a small scale.
Don't need to be a member, just wanna fling grass and mud and get sideways.

#16 edrach

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Posted 24 November 2003 - 09:04 PM

Eric, glad to see someone with a realistic attitude about having fun. I'm not ready for Open yet. If I get to the point of not having enough competition in Truck/Suv, I'll be joining you in Open. Fun, that's really what it's about.

#17 Flowmastered87GL

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Posted 24 November 2003 - 10:51 PM

Quite honesty I could manage open class. I ran in it once (at Hood River I think)

I didnt get first, but I had fun and got like 6th or something, not bad for a sub 100 HP car running against cars with crazy amounts of power.

Of course its been said before... its the driver not the car, but a good driver in a 67Hp justy and they will still drive circles around a 165 HP 2.5RS

#18 edrach

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 02:18 AM

Here's some updates and links from the ORG website:

http://www.oregonral...allyXDiscussion

#19 Flowmastered87GL

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 04:31 AM

Hmmm the idea of only letting members make a 4th run.... I would be a member in a second!!! It would be worth it to get 25% more run time (or would it be 33%??) each race.

#20 ezapar

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 11:45 AM

Well, I tried to go over to their board and stick up for you guys. But, ezboard is such a Muther F'n POS that it erased my long post because I didn't fill in the subject line before I hit the add reply button.

Any ways, in summary.

EVERYBODY is a cry baby.

The Durangos expecially, cuz their car that's in the truck class can't compete with the other cars that are in the truck class.

The GL and brat drivers because they can't hang in production where they belong. (unless their brat was sold after 1986 as a truck without seats in the back) That's right, the brat was sold as a passenger vehicle, hence the jumpseats in the back to beat the "TRUCK" tarrif on foreign vehicles. period.

If a friggin station wagon isn't a car, what is? Am I to jump into truck class if I show up in my legacy wagon?


Lastly the crybabys who have a slightly modded car that gets put into Open. If you add anything to your car that's not from the factory. . . TOO BAD!

I've personally beat some pretty baddass cars with my plain imp in the Open calss because it has a cold air intake and good year snow tires.
Sean Sexton won his first try in an impreza with 40 series street tires that got thrown into open because it was lowered and had an aftermarket muffler on it. Being lowered is NOT an advantage, I would say it works against a car on a bumpy course.



Quit crying. Have more fun racing.

#21 XSNRG

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 01:17 AM

All the answers are in the SCCA rule book.

I didn't feel like copying the whole books so i just wrote the relevant info. These rules are available at the ORG website.

It says in the SCCA rule book that the Truck Class is incorporated within the Production Class.
All vehicles shall conform to the manufacturers specs as produced and delivered.
The class is for N/A 4 and 6 cylinder 2WD light trucks; 6 cylinder 4WD light trucks; and 4 and 6 cylinder 2Wd and 4Wd SUV.
Minimum weights of the trucks; 4WD up to 3000cc must weigh 3700 lbs.

So, according to SCCA book, neither the Brat (at less than 3700 lbs) or the Durango (with a V-8) are legal in the truck class.

Clearly no subaru car would qualify for this class either.

mmmm...

By the SCCA rules book;

Stock N/A Brat's and wagons would race Production Class.

Stock turbo charged Brat's and wagons would race PGT Class.

Modified Brats and wagons would race Open Class.

V-8 equipped vehicles would not race.

What could be simpler? If people don't like the class there car puts them in, they should consider a different car or spectating. I personally don't think there should be ANY manipulation of the rules, they work fine as-is. Making up rules as you go is school yard BS. The rules were there before any of us started Rallying. The ORG should concentrate on organizing Rallys not writing rules.

I think Brats and Wagons can compete fine in Production and Open classes (has anybody compared times besides me?) and I think Durangos can compete fine at demolition derbys.

Grasshopper,
The answer you seek to add to the ORG website is already there, it's called the SCCA Performance Rally, ProRally, ClubRally, RallyCross Rulebook.

#22 edrach

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 10:01 AM

Mark, you're correct. However, the SCCA rules are even more confusing than what is currently used. It's obvious that ORG has amended the regs to suit "what is popular." I had trouble finding the specific rules, but they can be found at:
http://www.scca.org/...k/Article10.pdf
The 3700 pound minimum weight would entirely kill most classes.

#23 XSNRG

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 10:39 AM

The 3700 pound minimum for 4wd under 3000cc is only in the truck class:-)

#24 XSNRG

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 10:47 AM

It does say in the rules that regions can add classes, but I take that to mean that they can add Truck, Grp A or Grp N, it does not say they can change they rules. That may be something that's accepted out side the rulebook. It also says that if a car does not fit any class, it can be raced in the closest appropriate class at the organizers discretion, it doesn't say that rules or classes can be changed or added.

At the local speedway, they have a new class called the Bumblebee class, specifically for imports. I wanted to race a RX there. I got the rulebook and it said specifically, NO TURBOS and NO 4WD. So did I go and try to get them to change the rules for me at the expense of others? NO, I just forgot about it because I don't want to race a B210.

I think it's the same here, as soon as the rules are changed even the slightest bit, it is at somebodys expense that IS following the rules.

Maybe they should just have everybody that doesn't fit into one of the categories race time only and have trophys for the fastest cars?

#25 bajavwnsoobnut

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 03:22 PM

Welp since I am the guilty party for gettin wagons into T/SUV in the first place. I think they should just leave it alone and go with it. Heck if they disbanded the class that durango would not be able to run even in rallytruck class (there is a such class) cause of he is WAY over the 5100cc limitation cause of the 4wd and the supercharger (I talked to the head of rallycross for this year about it already). A
nd it is interesting that there are alot of people coming into T/SUV cause of it was a class that has been dying out.
I for one am there to have fun first but I do have a little bit of a competitive streak in me so I like the competition that goes with it.

But to point it out the T/SUV class is a ORG only class in fact they stated that once in a drivers meeting at one of the events. The rules that I have state that a region can start up a class for uncommon vehicles (i.e. Mopar products of the large kind, GM trucks/ SUVs, Ford trucks/SUVs, Toyota trucks/ SUVs, and old school Subarus).

Another thing to point out is that this last year I did good with even a stock 76 wagon with street tires!!! So durango boy should just be quiet and go with the flow cause I was only aiming for 5th place all the time (yeah I know I suck LOL :drunk: ).

LOL heck there was one event durango boy was complaining about all the Subies being in his clas so I shot back "give into the temptation and get a Subaru" and 84soob was right there and he got a kick out of that one.




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