colin14 Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 new member. have been reading your archives which is by the way great.i was reading the post by grounded1 and i am pretty sure i have his problem no power going up steep hills can any one tell me how would you find which catylytic converta is the problem one. front or back.do you have to replace it with anything or can you go without it what do you do hopo i have explained it ok i do need help not to mechanicly minded....tia.colin14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grounded1 Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 I still have the problem. The car ran great for a while and then the problem slowly came back. Maybe the computer had to relearn itself. In any event the problem came back. I've since replaced the forward exhaust system. The aft cat looked very clean. I have performed every sensor check the that the subaru/haynes/chilton manuals have come up with. They are all ok. I have never gotten any codes at all. If you take this as a truth, then my problem is not a sensor. Since this began a year ago I have changed the following: mass airflow sensor coolant temp sensor ignition coil oxygen sensor knock sensor plugs wires fuel filter air filter pvc valve and yesterday all 4 injectors. No help. I installed a vacuum gage, air fuel meter and an fuel pressure gage to monitor the engine. The fuel pressures are ok and never change all through the problem. The fuel air meter doesn't show anything unusual although it takes a lot to get that computer to go rich. I have performed a duty cycle check on each injector prior to replacing them and it was fine. I thought that maybe the injectors were malfunctioning mechanically but ok electrically (no codes). I plugged the purge valve vacuum line to rule out a leak there also. The problem is when you go up a steep grade. When demanding power the engine will bog down. If you continue the demand it will stall. If you catch it early (like I have been) and pull over fast, throw it in park the engine seems to be idling on 1 or 2 cylinders . If you rev it up it is smooth and revs as high as you like. Back at idle it shudders on 1 or 2 cylinders. If you let it idle it will eventually clear and off you go. If you run it to total stall I have to turn off the ignition and then restart. I can't restart by just going to start from ignition after the stall. You have to go to off. Where am I now. The only things left in the system are the muffler which may be causing some kind of blockage/back pressure during a high power demand. It did run great for a week after I chopped tha cat. The speed sensor on the speedometer my be skipping a few beats . Not enough to give a code but maybe enough to give the computer a false speed reference or the ecu computer itself When I had the injectors out I could see my intake valve stems and they were all clean so I don't think valve mechanical problems. The vacuum gage would have showed me if I had a vacuum leak but at Idle its got 19-20 in. vac. and thats fine. My car is a 91 wagon ls so I didn't mind spending on the sensors. THey've been in there a long time and I need to trust the car on long trips. The injectors did piss me off. I had to pull the fuel rails off to remove the old ones and they didn't fix the problem. What else is left the igniter unit? I doubt it. It doesn't know engine load just firing the coil when it's told to by the ecu. When the problem occurs the rpm means nothing. 2nd 3rd,4th gears, 2500, 3000, 4000 rpm makes no difference. The load does it. Level/low grade no problem. Up a steep grade forget it. I also inspected the fuel pump for any blockages at the screen even though the fuel pressures are ok...nothing. Advice, don't change any sensors if they are not faulted by a code. In the subaru service manual almost every sensor can cause drivability problems or stall. Thanks a lot. This goes beyond that. On interesting note for us suby heads, when I changed my injectors the hesitation skip I use to get between 3800-4000 is gone. So much for the Hobie Fix. The car did run noticably better after the injectors. I was impressed. The car actually shifted cleaner and faster right up till it ran like s#@t. I might take it to a suby dealer to check but they all don't have select monitors. Keep the Suby faith,we'll figure this out. Oh yeah, I did do the D check and drive it to stall. No codes. FYI...NO CODES. Next chapter soon...... Pat Grounded1 91 Legacy Wagon LS ps: kill me :temper: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 MAN! how frustrating. ok - just throwing out a couple guesses. How did the plugs look? any sign of carbon ? I'm wondering if you could have carbon built up or even some burnt /leaky valves? Was compression OK? Maybe having a shop trhow a scope on the high voltage? just to see if it is low? good luck buddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin14 Posted November 25, 2003 Author Share Posted November 25, 2003 Originally posted by grounded1 I still have the problem. The car ran great for a while and then the problem slowly came back. Maybe the computer had to relearn itself. In any event the problem came back. I've since replaced the forward exhaust system. The aft cat looked very clean. I have performed every sensor check the that the subaru/haynes/chilton manuals have come up with. They are all ok. I have never gotten any codes at all. If you take this as a truth, then my problem is not a sensor. Since this began a year ago I have changed the following: mass airflow sensor coolant temp sensor ignition coil oxygen sensor knock sensor plugs wires fuel filter air filter pvc valve and yesterday all 4 injectors. No help. I installed a vacuum gage, air fuel meter and an fuel pressure gage to monitor the engine. The fuel pressures are ok and never change all through the problem. The fuel air meter doesn't show anything unusual although it takes a lot to get that computer to go rich. I have performed a duty cycle check on each injector prior to replacing them and it was fine. I thought that maybe the injectors were malfunctioning mechanically but ok electrically (no codes). I plugged the purge valve vacuum line to rule out a leak there also. The problem is when you go up a steep grade. When demanding power the engine will bog down. If you continue the demand it will stall. If you catch it early (like I have been) and pull over fast, throw it in park the engine seems to be idling on 1 or 2 cylinders . If you rev it up it is smooth and revs as high as you like. Back at idle it shudders on 1 or 2 cylinders. If you let it idle it will eventually clear and off you go. If you run it to total stall I have to turn off the ignition and then restart. I can't restart by just going to start from ignition after the stall. You have to go to off. Where am I now. The only things left in the system are the muffler which may be causing some kind of blockage/back pressure during a high power demand. It did run great for a week after I chopped tha cat. The speed sensor on the speedometer my be skipping a few beats . Not enough to give a code but maybe enough to give the computer a false speed reference or the ecu computer itself When I had the injectors out I could see my intake valve stems and they were all clean so I don't think valve mechanical problems. The vacuum gage would have showed me if I had a vacuum leak but at Idle its got 19-20 in. vac. and thats fine. My car is a 91 wagon ls so I didn't mind spending on the sensors. THey've been in there a long time and I need to trust the car on long trips. The injectors did piss me off. I had to pull the fuel rails off to remove the old ones and they didn't fix the problem. What else is left the igniter unit? I doubt it. It doesn't know engine load just firing the coil when it's told to by the ecu. When the problem occurs the rpm means nothing. 2nd 3rd,4th gears, 2500, 3000, 4000 rpm makes no difference. The load does it. Level/low grade no problem. Up a steep grade forget it. I also inspected the fuel pump for any blockages at the screen even though the fuel pressures are ok...nothing. Advice, don't change any sensors if they are not faulted by a code. In the subaru service manual almost every sensor can cause drivability problems or stall. Thanks a lot. This goes beyond that. On interesting note for us suby heads, when I changed my injectors the hesitation skip I use to get between 3800-4000 is gone. So much for the Hobie Fix. The car did run noticably better after the injectors. I was impressed. The car actually shifted cleaner and faster right up till it ran like s#@t. I might take it to a suby dealer to check but they all don't have select monitors. Keep the Suby faith,we'll figure this out. Oh yeah, I did do the D check and drive it to stall. No codes. FYI...NO CODES. Next chapter soon...... Pat Grounded1 91 Legacy Wagon LS ps: kill me :temper: grounded1 as you know i have the same problem as you loss of ppower on hills i went to the local subaru dealer and got them to test drive the car up a big hill locally near my place here in australia and the same thing happened to the subaru guy no power going up the hill they checked the catalytic converta that was okay he said the problem was a carbon build up in the inlet manifold and valves apparently the ej22 engine is known for a build up of carbon and junk all they did was use there own brand of engine cleaner called here in australia. cleaner upper engine all sa/459. they also recommened using shell optimax feul as it cleans carbon build up . hope this helps you. they also test drove my car after using there upper engine cleaner up the same hill and they said no problem no power loss.colin14......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grounded1 Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 1LT, I'm at that point now. I'm going to do a compression check now. I can get a boroscope and check for the valve carbon build up. I've read this before on the board. It's hard to believe that two intake valves(per cyl) can carbon up to the point of a performance loss but I've learned not to ignore to much from this board. I will check it. Thanks. Colin, any after effects of running that stuff through your fuel other than the problem is gone? Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin14 Posted November 26, 2003 Author Share Posted November 26, 2003 grounded1 yes big improvement idling smoother,more acceleration,yes there is a notable differance.actually this stuff they use is not a fuel additive it is in a spray can and they sray it in the plastic pipe that goes into the exhaust manifold apparently all the instructions are on the back of can in australia the can of stuff they use is only au$16.00 and they will do it for you for a pretty reasonable price they test drive car after jobs done and give you a report i let them do it because they do it to ej22 engines all the time when needed they do suggest use it every service or six months they also said if problem becomes persistant the car might need a in car engine clean out.give it a try $16.00 bucks here is nothing only $8.00 bucks in the USA hope it works ps/ they also suggest shell optimax fuel apparently it helps clean the valves and other gunk.good luck col. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grounded1 Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 Colin, Is there any other name for SA/459. I can't seem to locate it. Who make this product. Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 In the old days we used Berrymans B-12 but it involved pouring it into the carb while jooking the throttle up to keep it from choking, then puposely stalling it bu dumping the las 1/3 of the can in fast. Let it sit for 1/2 hour or so before starting. Seemed to help about 1/2 the times I used it. Other times I think I was 'hoping' for a 'mechanic in a can' fix. I think brake fluid and even water have been used to some success. Sound like a spray can would work well, especially if some 'high tech' new stuff has been developed. thanx for the reports too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin14 Posted November 28, 2003 Author Share Posted November 28, 2003 Originally posted by grounded1 Colin, Is there any other name for SA/459. I can't seem to locate it. Who make this product. Pat grounded 1 sorry about that SA\459 as far as i know is a subaru product so the only thing i can suggest is . e\mail subaru America and quote the australian number of the product availiable here. it might be another ptoduct number there, it has to be avalable in America because this is an ongoing problem re/ power failure my car is a 91 gx auto fwd i am the second owner i even rang the previous owner and asked if there is anything i should watch for and she said the only thing to watch for is the build up of carbon and gunk because it makes the car sluggish and lose power she also said take it to subaru and get them to use the sa\459 and that fixes it.hope this helps colin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin14 Posted November 29, 2003 Author Share Posted November 29, 2003 Originally posted by grounded1 Colin, Is there any other name for SA/459. I can't seem to locate it. Who make this product. Pat grounded 1 i found this sight it 's not about subarus but it's cars with carbon and gunk build up and btw i read on this board that legacy 777 uses this stuff (sea foam) i don't know what this stuff is but heres a link to tell you all about it.colin. http://members.nuvox.net/~on.roz/cars/z28/seafoam.html hope it helps you.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grounded1 Posted November 29, 2003 Share Posted November 29, 2003 I hear you Colin. I'm going to look for it today. I still have to admit that even with the problem the new injectors have made a noticable difference. I was talking to a couple of Jeep Cherokee people. For Jeeps there are air/oil separator kits for the pvc breather hose to cut down on the oil vapor entering the intake system and thereby reducing the carbon deposits on the valves. I'm surprised that these kits haven't surfaced for the boxer. Especially since the boxer has a rep for being a heavy breather. Well, off on the sea foam hunt. Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin14 Posted November 30, 2003 Author Share Posted November 30, 2003 Originally posted by grounded1 I hear you Colin. I'm going to look for it today. I still have to admit that even with the problem the new injectors have made a noticable difference. I was talking to a couple of Jeep Cherokee people. For Jeeps there are air/oil separator kits for the pvc breather hose to cut down on the oil vapor entering the intake system and thereby reducing the carbon deposits on the valves. I'm surprised that these kits haven't surfaced for the boxer. Especially since the boxer has a rep for being a heavy breather. Well, off on the sea foam hunt. Pat grounded1, pat good luck let me know how you get on.the only other suggestion i have is e\mail subaru australia and ask them if this sa 549 is availiable in the states.colin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AusLegacy Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Colin, Could you put me onto the the Mechanic that did the carbon clean out, I'm having the same problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin14 Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by AusLegacy Colin, Could you put me onto the the Mechanic that did the carbon clean out, I'm having the same problem. auslegacy apparently its a common problem over here with liberty ej22 engines any subaru service centre should have this stuff they spray into the exhaust manifold and it cleans carbon and gunk on the valves ist not exspensive $15.00 bucks a can if you want to do it yourself the instructions are on back of can.colin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danbob99 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Drop your exuast and try and run it, see if you can hi rev it, with your cats clogged your car should stop revving at around 5 grand, depending on how clogged they are, youshould be able to stand, foot on the floor and not rev through the roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AusLegacy Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 She revs well over 5G. I have read that if your exhaust pressure is above 5psi (measured at the manifold with a pressure gauge) then the catalytic converters could be clogged. (I haven't tried it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy777 Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Danbob99 Drop your exuast and try and run it, see if you can hi rev it, with your cats clogged your car should stop revving at around 5 grand, depending on how clogged they are, youshould be able to stand, foot on the floor and not rev through the roof. There's really no safe way to do this. The first cat is part of the manifold, and you definitely don't want to run the engine without any manifold. AusLegacy, you can get a decent idea of catalytic converter condition by checking the engines vacuum. There is a thread that specifically describes what vacuum will do if cats are clogged. Please do a search, if you can't find anything, let me know and I'll see if I can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AusLegacy Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Thanks Josh, i did a quick search and found some great information ( http://auto.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=question482.htm&url=http://www.autosite.com/garage/subsys/catalyti.asp ) . Testing the vacuum, the pressure at the O2 sensor, the temperature before and after the Cat and knock testing the cat. All probaly worth a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy777 Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 glad you found some info. This was the thread I was thinking of http://usmb.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4777&highlight=vacuum+test Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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