Jump to content


Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, my lurker friend!

Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, an unparalleled Subaru community full of the greatest Subaru gurus and modders on the planet! We offer technical information and discussion about all things Subaru, the best and most popular all wheel drive vehicles ever created.

We offer all this information for free to everyone, even lurkers like you! All we ask in return is that you sign up and give back some of what you get out - without our awesome registered users none of this would be possible! Plus, you get way more great stuff as a member! Lurk to lose, participate to WIN*!
  • Say hello and join the conversation
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Classifieds with all sorts of Subaru goodies
  • Photo hosting in our gallery
  • Meet other cool people with cool cars
Seriously, what are you waiting for? Make your life more fulfilling and join today! You and your Subaru won't regret it, we guarantee** it.

* The joy of participation and being generally awesome constitutes winning
** Not an actual guarantee, but seriously, you probably won't regret it!

Serving the Subaru Community since May 18th, 1998!

Guest Message by DevFuse
 

Photo
- - - - -

Does a subarau produce Sludge in the motor


  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 Petersubaru

Petersubaru

    1000+ Super USER!

  • Members
  • 1,083 posts
  • Sarnia Canada

Posted 21 July 2007 - 12:46 PM

Just wondering if anybody has experienced or knows of someone who has developed sludge in the motor or maybe a better question would be to ask if subarus are prone to sludgying like some other car manufactures

#2 jon38iowa

jon38iowa

    Subaru Fanatic!

  • Members
  • 466 posts
  • Ankeny

Posted 21 July 2007 - 01:11 PM

Just wondering if anybody has experienced or knows of someone who has developed sludge in the motor or maybe a better question would be to ask if subarus are prone to sludgying like some other car manufactures

I have never heard or read that Subaru is prone to sludge (ala Toyata), but like any Engine, if neglected Sludge can occur.

#3 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,541 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 21 July 2007 - 01:22 PM

No they are not prone to sludge. Also to prevent sludge change the oil more frequently. One cause of sludge is many short trips where the oil doesnt get a chance to warm up. It takes 2 - 3x's longer for oil to warm up then water.


nipper

#4 porcupine73

porcupine73

    Obligate carnivore

  • Members
  • 4,920 posts
  • Buffalo, NY

Posted 21 July 2007 - 02:52 PM

Subaru's are not prone to sludge. Any engine can sludge if the oil change interval is too long, or as nipper said if it doesn't get a good drive to get the engine oil up to operating temp (~180 deg. F) periodically, water condensation and fuel may build up in the oil.

The 'sludge prone' engines frequently operate the oil at relatively high temps too which leads to sludge.

#5 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,541 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 21 July 2007 - 10:07 PM

Subaru's are not prone to sludge. Any engine can sludge if the oil change interval is too long, or as nipper said if it doesn't get a good drive to get the engine oil up to operating temp (~180 deg. F) periodically, water condensation and fuel may build up in the oil.

The 'sludge prone' engines frequently operate the oil at relatively high temps too which leads to sludge.


An FYI
http://www.autosafet...id=1090&scid=82

VW 1.8L and chrysler 2.7 as well as a saab engine all have sludge problems. Chrsyler is leaving people out to hang no matter what proof you have the car was well maintained. Thats why I alkways tell people to use the Harsh Driving intervals to change their oil.

Some cars its a poorly designed PCV system. Most I think are too small an oil capacity. Less oil gets contaminated fairly quickly.

nipper

#6 porcupine73

porcupine73

    Obligate carnivore

  • Members
  • 4,920 posts
  • Buffalo, NY

Posted 22 July 2007 - 06:09 AM

Cool link nipper. Some excerpts...

Bruce Crawley, a lubrication specialist for ExxonMobil Corp., said the first thing he would look for in investigating a sludge problem would be "cold spots" on surfaces where the oil circulates, because large variances in internal engine temperatures can cause sludge.
...
According to General Motors, the industry standard for temperature differences between the cylinder head and engine block is between 10 and 15 degrees.
...
Parry, who says he has repaired about 30 sludge-filled Toyota engines since 1998, contends the V-6's cylinder head temperature is too high because Toyota reduced the size of coolant passages in the head gaskets.
...
Parry said he has measured the temperature of the cylinder block and heads. He said the block runs at 190 to 210 degrees Fahrenheit, while the heads typically reach 260 to 270 degrees.
...
He says that makes for a hotter, cleaner burn, but also causes sludge to build up because the oil gets too hot. Also, Parry says, sludge develops as the oil passes back into the block, which is running 60 to 70 degrees cooler.



#7 theflystyle

theflystyle

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Fairfax

Posted 23 July 2007 - 07:22 AM

and who said you cant learn something new every day...

very informative

#8 zyewdall

zyewdall

    Subaru Master

  • Members
  • 2,132 posts
  • Ward, CO

Posted 23 July 2007 - 09:01 AM

and who said you cant learn something new every day...

very informative


Yeah. My first reponse was going to be that engines don't produce sludge, poor maintenance and driving habits do. But seems like there are some engine designs that promote it. I stand corrected.

#9 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,541 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 23 July 2007 - 09:06 AM

Yeah. My first reponse was going to be that engines don't produce sludge, poor maintenance and driving habits do. But seems like there are some engine designs that promote it. I stand corrected.


You can sit you know. We are very informal here :-p

nipper

#10 zyewdall

zyewdall

    Subaru Master

  • Members
  • 2,132 posts
  • Ward, CO

Posted 24 July 2007 - 10:19 AM

You can sit you know. We are very informal here :-p

nipper


:lol::lol:

#11 Hodaka Rider

Hodaka Rider

    Original BC Soobnut

  • Members
  • 1,577 posts
  • Nelson, BC (Canada)

Posted 24 July 2007 - 10:36 AM

VW 1.8L and chrysler 2.7 as well as a saab engine all have sludge problems. Chrsyler is leaving people out to hang no matter what proof you have the car was well maintained.
nipper



Which VW 1.8L? Do you have a link?

#12 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,541 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 24 July 2007 - 10:56 AM

Which VW 1.8L? Do you have a link?


there is this thing called google. It's wonderful.

In other words, there is too much listed to post a link. Google vw 1.8 sludge and read. This is not the worlds best kept secret.


nipper

#13 LegAC

LegAC

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 44 posts
  • Atlanta GA

Posted 24 July 2007 - 01:00 PM

The difference in the head temperatures were maybe 10% of the problem. IMO, it was the fact that the head was hot and there was only a 4 quart sump. Oil sees extreme temperature variations in alot of cars. Especially turbo'd applications. As we all know, turbos get fairly hot, especially the ones that don't have water cooling. You don't see every turbo'd vehicle sludging up.

That said, I lean more towards inadequate sump capacity, and Subaru does a good job designing the sumps on just about everything. Heck, our H6's hold like 6 or 7 quarts of oil, do they not?

#14 bulwnkl

bulwnkl

    Subaru Fanatic!

  • Members
  • 501 posts
  • Arizona, USA

Posted 24 July 2007 - 03:48 PM

Not the ER27 (XT6 engine). It was under 5 qts. Nevertheless, and notwithstanding what factors one might think are the worst offenders in terms of cause, some engine designs are extremely poor in terms of beating up oil and causing sludge or coking or both. The issue is far larger than just sump capacity, though clearly a 15 gallon sump would help prevent the sludging in SOME of these applications (it would not stop the Toyotas from sludging, but may perhaps help one of the VW engines).

#15 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,541 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 24 July 2007 - 04:45 PM

http://www.autosafet...tcat.php?cid=28

That sums it up

nipper

#16 Hondasucks

Hondasucks

    Subaru Technician

  • Members
  • 4,760 posts
  • Vancouver, WA

Posted 24 July 2007 - 09:57 PM

Most of the Toyota sludging problem is due to customers not changing the oil as often as they should, although Toyota will replace a a sludged 4 cylinder (5S and probably the 4S but not sure) and the V6 (Camry and Sienna engines) up to a certain mileage but I don't know the details. It depends on the amopunt of sludge, and the amount of cylinder damage whether or not you get the whole motor replaced, just the head, or if it just gets cleaned and new valve seals installed. We have a poster about it @ work but I haven't read it super carefully...

#17 bulwnkl

bulwnkl

    Subaru Fanatic!

  • Members
  • 501 posts
  • Arizona, USA

Posted 24 July 2007 - 10:48 PM

Sorry, Hondasucks, the Toyota issue is MOST DEFINITELY NOT JUST AN OWNER NEGLECT ISSUE, IT IS A DESIGN FLAW. There are WAAAY too many people with receipts for extremely short drain intervals and failed, sludged motors for even Toyota to claim otherwise. The primary reason Toyota is replacing engines under warranty is that they know they have a problem that's frankly huge. This is now far too well documented to claim otherwise.

#18 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,541 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 24 July 2007 - 11:42 PM

Sorry, Hondasucks, the Toyota issue is MOST DEFINITELY NOT JUST AN OWNER NEGLECT ISSUE, IT IS A DESIGN FLAW. There are WAAAY too many people with receipts for extremely short drain intervals and failed, sludged motors for even Toyota to claim otherwise. The primary reason Toyota is replacing engines under warranty is that they know they have a problem that's frankly huge. This is now far too well documented to claim otherwise.


Agreed. When you use the interval in the owners manual, you should be comfotable in knowing that your engine will be healthy.
This is the fault of too little oil, and too long a maintaence interval. Professionally I dont buy they extreem differnce in oil temperitures. If that was true everyone with an external engine oil cooler would see the same thing.

nipper

#19 Hondasucks

Hondasucks

    Subaru Technician

  • Members
  • 4,760 posts
  • Vancouver, WA

Posted 30 July 2007 - 11:57 PM

That's just what one of the techs told me... He's seen cars with the affected motors with 200k on them with no problems, and he's seen them come in with 60k that smoke real bad and have like 2" of sludge in the oil pan.... Could just as easily be dependent on what type of oil they were running, cuz let's face it not everyone goes to the dealership and pays $30+ for an oil change :-P (Although it's always great when we get a car that just came from Jiffy Lube that has a brand new oil filter on it, and the yellow seal paint junk on the drain plug, but no oil in the engine...
Or when they first started putting the external spin-on filters on the automatic trannies, the dummies at Jiffy Lube liked to drain 4-5 quarts out of the transmission, and put 4 quarts into the engine... by the time they got to us they had a fried transmission and every seal in the engine blown... (Although it was sorta convenient since Jiffy Lube is right around the corner from the dealership I work at...)

#20 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,541 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 31 July 2007 - 12:01 AM

or the class c mechanic at the dealership that never changed the filter and left the plug loose. Dealers are no better.

nipper




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users