96 2.5l OBW head gasket project

[sublute]

Hello,

 

I'm finally starting on the 96 Legacy OBW 2.5l head gasket project. I have a few questions and will probably have more as I progress.

 

1. Do you really have to take the coolant plugs out to drain all the coolant from the engine block? I'm inclined to skip this?

 

2. Does the 1996 2.5l have hydrolic lifters? I read here that it is. I just want to double check.

 

3. On reading one PDF on changing the timing belt on a 2.5 DOHC engine, they use several special tools to keep the cam pulleys in position. Are they neccesary? In what sequence should I move the cam shafts to be sure not to damage valves?

 

4. I have the Haynes manual which OK...but not super. Is it worth down loading the "official manual" from an online source? I think it is around $19.

 

I'm working up a parts list for 1st Subaru and also have some expert help from my daughter...

 

thanks for any help,

 

David

[idosubaru]

not necessary to drain coolant, but it's nice. it's cleaner and when you start disassembling you could possibly have coolant drain down into your heads and into the cylinders, not a big deal either but avoidable.

 

special tools are not necessary. directions are on here, basically line up all the timing marks and remove the belt. if the drivers side snaps (it probably will), it will be benign. move it back in place and reinstall the belts, i'ts very easy without any special tools.

 

the Subaru manuals are much better than the haynes, there's no comparison really.

[sublute]

OK, I'm almost ready to pull the engine. I only have to remove the torque converter bolts, exhaust bolts (they are soaking with penetrating spray), engine mount bolts, and bolts to the trannie.

 

I haven't taken the intake manifold off yet. Is it best to do this before yanking the engine? I have a bit removed from it, but not everything. The spark plug wire boots on the plug end were a pain to get off. I was thinking it might be easier to assemble all this before putting the engine back in...

 

thanks for any suggestions,

 

David

[idosubaru]

leave everything and deal with it when the motor is out. assemble all you can out of the car, then drop it back in.

 

if you want to get real tricky you can leave the intake manifold all hooked up, remove it from the engine, prop it up and out of the way, yank the motor, then drop it back in. saves a disconnecting a few electricals and hoses, but really doesn't save any time. i don't really recommend it, but it can be done.

[sublute]

Hello,

 

I'm new to automatic transmissions. You have to rotate the engine to remove the four torque converter bolts? I just printed out a PDF of the torque converter from a thread and it lists a tightening torque spec for an un-numbered nut hanging in space kinda in front of the torque converter clutch... 41 Nm's. Ahead of myself, but just thinking about putting it back together... http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1445&d=1094095460

 

I also notice few lock washers while taking everything apart. I assume thread locking compound is needed for re-assembly. Are there any suggestions for the best type? or does it vary for application?

 

Thanks

[idosubaru]

thread locker is not needed. the only thing you should need that for is your oil pump backing plate retaining screws. remove your oil pump and check all the screws, they often come loose. remove them and apply thread locker to those. nothing else on the engine.

 

you'll want to check out threads about seating the torque converter in the transmission. i've posted about a dozen times about it. it is very tricky, particularly the first time, to seat the torque converter the last 1/4". there are splines in there that need to engage and line up. what's tricky is that it's hard to tell if it's seated or not. if it's not you'll essentially ruin your transmission (you'll crack the internal oil pump) when you put the engine in. otherwise everything is nuts and bolts and fairly straight forward, just make absolutely sure the torque converter is fully seated that last 1/4" before installing the engine. do it twice or 10 times if you have to be sure. it may be possible to loosen all the nuts and not even have the torque converter come out at all, but again just make sure it doesn't come out at all. like i said, play with the search feature for all kinds of tips on this.

[sublute]

OK, I've got the torque converter bolts out and am stuck on the drivers side lower transmission/engine nut! It's really in a tight spot with transmission fluid hoses, steering shaft/joint, drive shaft, etc... I can get a wrench on it from above, but with no room to move and a u-joint and extension from below, but I can't seem to budge it with this. I feel the extensions torquing but the nut doesn't move...

 

It's time for a lunch break... I'll go back for a fresh start in a little bit.

 

I found the threads on positioning the torque converter. Thanks for the tip. I will read and be careful when I'm on the other side of this project.

 

The drive shaft ends seem to have a bit of play. In other words the DOJ to transmission join seems to have a bit of play. In my experience with drive shafts on 79,84,92, etc Subaru's, I don't think I've seen this much play. Should I be concerned? I don't have any record of the shafts being replaced or worked on since 90k miles to the current 160k. Should I be concerned about this wearing the splined shaft on the trannie?

 

thanks again, and again....

[idosubaru]

the shafts tend to have some play, in which direction are you talking? is it going towards and away from the transmission? or is it seeming to have rotational play around the shaft?

 

that lower nut, yeah they can be annoying. you should be able to get it. get anything out of the way that you can, i've never had a problem with EJ's. i pulled a 96 and 97 legacy this year and actually got them out surprisingly fast with no issues. it think yo'ull get it after a break.

[sublute]

OK, I've got the engine out and on a stand. I got that drivers side lower nut with a short pipe extension on my 3/8" ratchet handle and a little grunt. Tomorrow I'll start on taking it apart. I'm going to clean it up a bit to get any oil and grit that I couldn't get with the power washer before I started. The plastic oil separator seemed to be leaking and seems to be the oil leak mentioned in service tickets. They were suspecting the rear seal. The screws were loose. I'll do the aluminum replacement. The rear seal is OK, but I should probably replace it while I have the engine out.

 

I'm sure I will have more questions about the heads, cams and such as I dig deeper.

 

Yes, the doj's seem to have rotational play. In other words they have play off axis to the shaft.

[idosubaru]

let someone else post about the cv's, but i do see frequent posts about cv "play" that i don't think is an issue. but i'm less versed in CV's. have they ever been worked on at all?

 

there's been a handful of people replacing rear mains only to have them leak shortly after installing them, these are guys i personally know on the board, not just random commentary - so proceed carefully and make sure you clean everything up perfectly, grease and oil it properly and set it perfectly. and yes on the metal separator plate with new gasket.

 

where you able to yank it without pulling the converter out at all? i forgot to mention sometimes you can wire it shut as you proceed to prevent it from coming out. might want to do that now if you can.

[sublute]

Yes, I got it out without the converter coming with it. There was just a thin plate with a backing ring where the 8? bolts to the shaft were. I was amazed at how thin the plate is! Again, I'm used to seeing a big flywheel on manual transmissions of my earlier Subarus.

 

I should be concerned about the torque converter coming apart? I'll have to take a closer look at it. Because it didn't come off, does that mean I will have no alignment problems with putting it back together? I have to read a little more about it... What is the blue mark for? (see attached photo)

[ron917]

That thin plate is called the flex plate. Yeah, it's amazing that the thin plate and four bolts is what transfers all that power to the tranny.

 

See this thread about torque convert seating:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=79713

Near the end of the thread, I posted a picture from my '99 factory service manual that shows how to measure to ensure that the torque converter is seated properly. I don't know if the measurements will be the same for your car, but that's the type of info you need. When I swapped the engine in my '99, the torque converter didn't budge when I yanked the engine, so there was no trouble getting it back together. Hopefully, it goes the same with your project.

[sublute]

Hello,

 

The torque converter surface where the flex plate bolts on to the transmission to engine mating surface measurement is .25" which is less than the specs for the '99 OBW 2.5 . Can I assume that the seating was not disturbed during engine removal?

 

Because this has hydraulic lifters (96 ej25), I don't have to mess around with shims and measuring valve clearance? I just have to clean the lifters and prime them and store them in oil then put them back in? They were quiet while engine was running before I started all this...

 

I'm a little confused about valve to valve interference mentioned in "the End Wrench" article about changing the T-belt on an EJ25. Folks here say to just let the cam shafts do their thing when taking off the T-belt, but this article says this will mess up valves. Who is right? I just want to make sure I don't damage the valves when I take the T-belt off.

 

Thanks again for everybodys help.

[idosubaru]

dont' bother with the hydraulic valve lash adjusters, just leave them, you don't need to mess with them. if you were leaving them out for months then yeah, put them in a bag of oil, otherwise leave. keep them in the same bores, don't mix anything up if you can help it.

 

sounds like your TC didn't come out. just make sure when you go to seat the engine and torque converter bolts, you're not drawing anything together with the bolts, if you have to do that then it's not fully seated. the engine should go all the way back, seated fully with the transmission without "running into" the flexplate. if it seems like it is and you need to tigthen everything else up to draw it together, then it's not right.

 

the potential exists for valves to interfere. but the way it's loaded with the marks lined up, it won't if it lets loose. remember, the valves don't "always" interfere, only at certain points. if the cam springs loose when you remove the belts WITH THE MARKS LINED UP properly, then it springs in a direction and distance that does not cause any interference. what you don't want to do is start randomly rotating cranks and cams...then you will reach those interference points. in which case it should feel too hard (which may be hard to notice you're first time since the cams are difficult to move anyway). the FSM is over precautious on this and for good reason. i'd find another thread or two that explains this cam rotation thing in case i didn't describe it right or something. i've done them before without issue or special tools, that's what i know for sure. actually i think they're rather easy.

[mnwolftrack]

to add to grossgary's comments regarding seating of the torque converter, here are my own observations:

 

1. The torque converter on two 1998 OBW's I've worked on is seated properly when the four outer-most metal flanges of the TC are about half way recessed into the transmission. These flanges are where the four small 12mm torque converter-to-flex plate bolts go. There's a somewhat thick metal flange that faces outwards (or towards the outside of an imaginary circle). I stood at the passenger side of the car looking at the TC so that my line of site was looking directly at the side of the forward mating surface of the transmission so that it was flush with my line of site and I compared it to these 4 flange surfaces. Then, I drew a permanent marker line on these 4 flanges so I new what position was flush. I made these marks as I pulled the engines out for the first time, pulling a little at a time, and making sure the TC wasn't coming out with the engines. Each time, i stuck a screw driver in the inspection hole on top the engine and pushed the TC back as far as it would go, then once I had the clearance, I ran a bolt through the upper passenger side transmission-to-engine bolt hole (where the wire harness bracket goes) with a flat piece of scrap metal bent in a slight "V" shape to keep the TC in place during the remainder of my work. I should further explain that when I stuck the screwdriver in the inspection hole to push the TC back, it only moved back about 1/8" on the first try only on each car I worked on. The TC did not get pulled out at all. This 1/8" inch is explained in more detail below.

 

2. When the TC is properly seated and you've just finished mating the engine back up to the transmission during reinstallation, the installation of the 4 TC/flex plate bolts will pull the TC forward about 1/8" inch. Meaning, when you mate the engine up to the transmission, the TC and flex plate should not be touching or even rubbing yet. They will not touch until you put the 4 bolts in, in which case the TC gets pulled forward. The distance it gets pulled forward is NOT very much. The 4 bolts are very short, yet their short length is just long enough for them to reach the TC even though it's not pulled up to the flex plate yet.

 

3. During reinstallation, the engine does not seem to like to balance perfectly (at least not on my hoist and load balancer). The two large studs sticking out of of the back of the block that go into the transmission like to try and poke at the TC and if you are pulling and pushing the engine back and forth, you might accidentally pull the TC out if these studs grab it just right (I did this once). I had to lift the engine back out and reseat the TC. This happened on my first engine reinstallation. I learned from it, and I used that "V" shaped retainer piece I mentioned earlier, for the second engine reinstallation. I left the bracket in place until I had the two lower studs in place. With the studs in place in the transmission, I still had enough clearance to undo my bolt and remove the "V" bracket. I've heard some people use zip ties through this bolt hole and through one of the TC bolt holes and they cut the zip tie at the last moment.

 

Again, these are my observations for two 1998 OBW's. Perhaps someone else can chime in if these observations are valid for your year (I would think so, which is why I mention it).

 

Regarding reinstallation of the timing belt, I agree, it is easy. I did not use any special tools. I just used some cheap plastic spring "clamps" to hold the belt in place on the pulleys. Some people have used clothes pins. The belt doesn't need much pressure to hold it in place on the cams. Just enough to keep the belt from sliding off or jumping teeth. I set my last belt install up first on the two passenger cams. They rotate freely into position. Then I started weaving the belt through all the pulleys (the tensioner was not installed yet, and I removed the lower passenger side-most idler pulley to free up some slack). Then, I rotated the driver pulleys into position. I followed the Haynes manual for this part (skipped it for the rest of the job!). The Haynes manual mentions that you should rotate one cam clockwise, and rotate the other cam counter clockwise, and it's very specific. I forget which one is which, but it basically came down to rotating both cams in the shortest direction (clockwise vs. counterclockwise) to get them to the proper alignment. THey didn't need to be rotated very far passed where I could no longer rotate freely by hand.

 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but you can rotate one cam around and around all you like without worrying about valves hitting each other as long as the other cam on the same head is in the "freely-spinning-by-hand" position. When the cam can be rotated freely by hand, it means all of the valves are closed and out of harm's way.

 

If you are the least bit worried about it, just rotate the cams slowly. I would think you'd be able to feel if you were starting to hit valves against each other or the pistons. And I would think it would take a lot of arm strength to actually start bending things. It's one thing for the engine to bend valves when it was running and snapped a belt, but I think it's a different matter if you are concerned about bending valves by arm power. And for what it's worth, I was able to rotate the cams quite easily with a 1/2" drive ratchet or breaker bar attached to the cam sprocket nuts (make sure they have already been torqued down sufficiently first though).

 

Then after the belt is on all 4 cam gears, I installed the idler pulley. After this, I installed the tensioner and pulled the pin. Then, I rotated the crank back and forth a few times to make sure things stayed in position. Note that it can take a few minutes for the tensioner to fully extend itself, so I wouldn't start rotating thing right after pulling the pin.

[sublute]

Hello,

 

Thanks for the detailed information about the TC. I think the zip ties sound like a good idea. I will revisit this post when I'm ready to install the engine.

 

The spring clamps sound like a great idea to hold the T-belt in place!

 

I took the T-belt off this morning and it all went smoothly. I do have a question about the idlers. There is no play in any of them, but some of the bearings have more "noise" when I hold them in my hand and give them a spin. They spin freely. One or two have been replaced in the previous T-belt replacement and I assume they are the quieter ones. Should I replace the more noisy ones? I guess it is a judgement of bearing life...

 

Later tonight I will take the heads off. Should I have the valve seals replaced at the machine shop? Will/should they let me know if I need valve guides. Will this be part of the function of the pressure test and inspection. The engine has 165K miles on it and seems to be well taken care of.

 

thanks,

[mnwolftrack]

The shop will be able to tell you if any other work needs to be done. You can tell them before-hand that you just want to do the minimum amount of work, the full works, or anything inbetween. But the first priority is for them to check for warpage, cracks, etc... and if the heads have been shaved before. They can only be shaved so many times. You should also ask them if if they found any heat tags on the heads, and if the heat tags were melted or not.

 

If you have the dual overhead cam version of the 2.5L, watch it when you pull the lower cams. The lifters will likely want to fall out on their own. I recommend labeling ALL of them before you even pull the cams, so that if any fall out, you'll be ok. And Put something under the heads so that if the lifters fall, they will not get banged up.

 

I rubbed a clean dry spot on each lifter, and labelled them with a black marker. Then, I put them in a container and drew a picture of the installation order on my notebook (I wrote myself my own instructions and steps).

 

My car had 136k on it when the gaskets blew, and all I needed as far as machine shop work was a cleaning, pressure test, and resurfacing. Two exhaust valves needed to be removed and manually cleaned because they weren't closing all the way, but nothing needed replacing.

 

Oh, and I used another one of my plastic clamps to hold the driver side cam gears in position while putting the belt on. This spring clamp looked more like a c-clamp. I rotated the gears into position and lightly clamped them together (clamp jaws covered up the double slashes). The clamps I used cannot put any amount of real force on anything, and the jaws were rubber. I think these clamps came from the $1 bin at a local tool store. Perfect for this job though! All in all it was pretty easy. I've had Toyota V6 jobs that were much harder to do timing belts, particularly because the timing slashes were very vague and you could have both cams off a tooth in either direction and it still could be considered "aligned" with the vague marks. The Subaru 2.5L is nice. Each cam has a slash to match to a notch on the timing cover, a double slash to align each cam gear to each other, and another alignment mark on the crank. I did not rotate the crank after removing the belt, so I didn't have to worry about realigning it. I've seen some people on this board mention the crank gear looks like it has 2 alignment marks on it, and one of them is definitely not right. Make sure you're using the right mark. Lastly, it's probably too late, but I drew marks on my original timing belt before removal (silver sharpie pens are great!) and drew exactly where all the alignment marks were on everything. Then I wrote descriptions on the belt for each mark I made. I was going to transfer these marks to the new belt (taping the new and old belts together side-by-side), but I realized the new belt already had white alignment marks on it. I taped the new belt to the old one just in case, and my marks aligned perfectly with the new belt marks.

 

Regarding the idlers, mine looked and sounded ok and I didn't replace any, however, if you plan on owning it a long time and don't' want to worry about it every time you start the engine, you may want to replace them. They are rather expensive though. I replaced the belt and the tensioner, water pump, and bought individual gaskets to make up the equivalent of a "valve grind" gasket set (e.g. all gaskets necessary for a head gasket/valve job). I got my OEM parts through 1stsubaruparts.com. They are a dealer on the West coast and offer a nice discount.

[sublute]

Hello,

 

Ok, with the #1 @ TDC (I checked it with a compression guage as I rotated the crankshaft) the arrows on all the camshaft gears all point 12 o'clock and the crank shaft gear marking is properly indexed with the mark on the case. The single mark and the double hash marks do not line up as my Haynes manual or the PDF on T-belt replacement by "the End Wrench" I will include photos of the position. The engine was running smoothly and fine before this work, except it had overheated and been diagnosed with a bad HG.... The T-belt had be replaced 40K miles ago. Again, it is a 96 OBW EJ25 with hydraulic lifters. Did they use a different alignment for the cam sprockets? If the positions were wrong, would the engine have enough valve opening to operate as smoothly as it did?

 

I'm scratching my head...

 

I had to rotate the photos to the right to get the size right... I just made them clearer so hopefully you can see the marks other than the arrows.

[ron917]

Subarus are not like other cars. No piston is at TDC for timing belt installation. You must use the hash mark that is on the back of the crank sprocket (on the reluctor for the crank position sensor). Ignore the arrows, they are not for timing belt installation.

[sublute]

I aligned the crankshaft sprocket arrow to this hashmark and this corresponds also to the 0 mark on the timing belt cover (back) and crankshaft pulley. I checked this after I took the pulley and back cover off. In other words, the arrow on the sprocket aligned with the hash mark on the reluctor casing.

[idosubaru]

do not worry about TDC and such. the endwrench articles for the DOHC...and SOHC for that matter, EJ25 are dead on. exact, spot on. it's very simple, follow those directions and line up the cams like it says. i can't recall specifics from memory, but it is very simple and straight forward...of course i've done a billion subaru's. make sure the cam pulley marks are lined up. if they are, then everything is where it needs to be.

 

if yo'ure not looking at the marks on the old belt then no need to read this, it may confuse you. if the marks on the OLD timing belt are not lining up with everything, then rotate the engine a few times, but really you don't need the old timing belt to line up perfectly before removal, though i suppose it's a warm fuzzy for removing it. when the cams and crank are all lined up and you install the timing belt, the marks are all lined up, i'm sure you'v enoticed the marks on the belt itself. if you rotate the engine one time...the marks are now out of alignment. they are only "in" alignment every so-many revolutions, so don't let that concern you with the old belt. if you don't know what i'm talking about and are not looking at the marks on the old belt then ignore what i just said so i don't confuse you.

[sublute]

OK, I've got it. The hash on the reluctor aligns with the hash on the sensor case and then the double hash marks on the camshaft sprockets align... I got confused with all the marks. It has nothing to do with the arrow on the front of the crankshaft sprocket.

 

Duh...

[sublute]

Hello,

 

Last night I got the cams and lifters out. They are all labeled with a sharpie. I only have a 3/8" drive 12 pt. socket and the head bolts need a little more umph to undo them. I was on my way to breaking the ratchet handle... I'll get a 1/2" drive 12 pt. socket today. I only have a 3/8" drive clicking torque wrench. I assume I will need a 1/2" drive torque wrench to install the heads?

I have the thread on proper sequence for torquing the head bolts.

 

 

Tomorrow it will be off to the machine shop for the heads and later this afternoon I'll figure the total damage for parts...

[mnwolftrack]

If you don't want or need a 1/2" drive ratchet, just get a 3/8" breaker bar (such as from Sears). This should suffice, or, get a 1/2" breaker bar with a 1/2"-to-3/8" reducer. However, I always like an excuse to buy more tools! As the years go on, I'm always glad I bought stuff even if I really didn't want to at the time. While I can't see breaking the socket, I can see possibly breaking the 3/8" ratchet if using a cheater bar.

 

Regarding torque wrenches, the torque procedure is very specific and I had to use 2 different torque wrenches. My 1/2" drive wrench only reads ft-lbs, and about the 3rd step of the Subaru torque procedure (out of like 6 steps) calls for inch-lbs. So, I had to go out and get an inch-lbs torque wrench which happened to come from Sears and was a 3/8" size. I don't remember the specific inch-lbs torque requirement, but it isn't very much and my 1/2" drive wrench wouldn't go down that far assuming I even converted ft-lbs to inch-lbs. My 1/2" wrench only went down to like 25ft-lbs, and I'd like to say the subi procedure called for quite a bit less than this (in inch-pounds). One ft-lb equals 12 inch-lbs, and vice-versa. I couldn't find anyone else that carried an inch-pounds wrench and Sears didn't even realize they had it! It shouldn't be an impossible find though. I think I spent $80 on the inch-lbs wrench at Sears. It is not the dial indicator type (I don't like those).

[sublute]

Hello,

 

Well, I "rented" (buy it then take it back and they refund) a 1/2" torque wrench from AutoZone, but they didn't have a 1/2" drive 14mm 12 pt. socket. Sears has it, so I'm off for a field trip with my daughter. I want to get the heads off tonight so I can take it them to the machine shop tomorrow.

 

There is a great little program called Convert for PC that is very good. It converts torque. It was freeware, but the version I have is 7? years old. Does all I need....