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The mysterious Legacy from 'ell - very long story


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42 replies to this topic

#26 Skip

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 11:55 AM

WA, thanks again for your time.
I trust your expierence far more than I do my own.

As for:

Internal at the center of the engine or out at the heads?
Believe it or not both. One side a bit noisier but
center and both heads -
noise like this is transmitted I'm sure.
The first time it happened, the noise sounded
like all the oil has been pumped out and...
well I thought there was no hope for the engine.

Changed oil/filter - as I mentioned much earlier,
the noise abated and it returned to
sewing machine smooth.

In my experiance..............collapsed lifters do not cause a misfire. Have seen many 2.2L engines that have had to much sealant put on the oil pump and get pumped into oil bleed holes on the rocker arms causing the lifters to collaps, none with a misfire due to this. Lifters pumped up all the way will cause misfire, but no noise.
Now THAT is informative. Thanks for that insight.

Worn rod and main bearing noise should not completly go away intermittently, and should not cause a misfire.

Agreed.
If the oil pressure fell i--
would / could the conrod bearings make noise before they fail completely?

Back to inspecting the valve guides. I have not personally had the chance to see this, but have heard from many professinals in the business that it does happen. Valve guides will come loose in the cyl head and slide down the valve steam holding the valves open and causeing a misfire. Valves hammer the guide back in place and misfire goes away, untill guides move again. I have to assume there is going to be noise associated with this problem.
Now there is a very good possibility!!
Odd for it to happen on a 66Kmi engine but
this is the Legfrom'ell afterall.

Wish I had a bore scope.
Thanks again, good info that.


#27 WAWalker

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 01:01 PM

just drop the exhaust at the heads. The chances of this happening to the intake guides is slim. There is a certian amont of oil getting sucked past the valve guide seals and into the valve guides on the intake side, keeping them lubricated. Not on the exhaust side though.

The exhaust valve stems get a "carbon seal" built up on them. That is, part of the stem that is inside the guide when the valve is closed gets carbon built up on it. This can at times cause valves to "hang up" in the guide and close late, causing a misfire. Agian normally no noise.

But if the guides are loose and this carbon seal causes resistance when valves are opening, this could "pull" the valve guide out as the valve opens.

That old of a car with that few miles setting for a long time without be run...............seems like a good candidate.

Like I say I've never seen it, after 10 years of working on Subarus, but I'm told it happens.

#28 davebugs

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 10:12 PM

Some minor corrections and an update.

The timing belt was a Dayco - I use them a lot and have not had any issues on Sub's, VW's, and Honda's - but there's always a first time.

The fuel filter is a new wix.

The update is that I called the kid. He's put 200 miles on it with no re-occurance. Due to his work schedule he won't be running it much until the weekend (fri,sat,sun).

Besides - it's been warm. Do you really think this thing would break down when it's warm? I signed him up for AAA premium that starts in about 7 days (10 days until the 100 mile towing kicks in from signup date). My guess is when it breaks it will be a very cold day, the car far away, and just shy of AAA kicking in.

I didn't have a way to record the car when it was making the noise.

I would love to read any codes (even though no CEL is on) but don't know how.

Perhaps I've recieved an early c-mas present and this puppy will just keep running merrily along....

I did take a pic of the LCA and oil pan this evening. Perhaps tomorrow evening I'll post the pics if I can figure out how.

Thanks for the suggestions. I asked the kid to pay attention to what he was doing if/when it happens again. So far for me it had mostly been random and infrequent.

Dave

#29 Kilroy

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 06:30 AM

I just read through all of the posts and I have to agree with what Manarius said, with the exception of the sound being exceptionally loud this is the way my (and Manarius') engine acted when the MAF sensor bit the dust. It was very unpredictable, you could drive 100 miles with no troubles and then the car would jump and buck or just have no power. Sometimes it would die when you pull over and others it would just calm down and idle. A short wait time (15-30 seconds) and it would fire right up again with no indication that there ever was a problem.

MAF sensors are an easy swap and they are cheap, couldn't hurt to give it a shot.

GL with the detective work, I look forward to reading the eventual outcome.

:clap: :banana: :clap:

#30 Skip

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 08:04 AM

Dave wanted me to add some picts

Oil Pan with aux. over fill drain hole
Posted Image


Control arm with out much "conrol"
Posted Image

#31 Kilroy

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 03:40 AM

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Wow, that bottom side must have sat in a salt bath for some time!

#32 cookie

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 04:36 PM

Sure wish you the best on this one. It seems if it had spun a bearing it would have shown up again by now.

#33 nipper

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 07:42 PM

Can we try something basic?

Get yourself a vacum gauge and tell us what it reads. I think this car sat in water for a while.

nipper

#34 davebugs

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 02:21 PM

On the pics, etc.

I actually forgot to take a pic of the side of the LCA that the shop welded prior to Skip and I doing the damage beating on it trying to remove it. But as you can see it was pretty wimpy.

The car has lived it's life in the Pittsburgh area. I doubt it's actually set around in salt water.

I can invision it setting in a driveway or two, along a wall on the right side, perhaps under a tree. I found no tree remnants on it in the cowl, paint stains, etc.

So far so good. He says the odometer is off about 8 MPH at 60 MPH(he's really doing more like 50 MPH). It had 14" 185/70/14's on it with factory steel wheels and hubcaps, and I put the same size aluminum wheels with winter tires back on it. It's a L model so I would expect 14's. I know most cars overstate MPH a little. Other than different tires (probably 15") I don't know of another way to remedy this. I think he's just gonna have to live with it.

I don't have a vacuum gauge (just a compression gauge) but perhaps I can borrow one if he has any more troubles when it comes back for an oil change or another issue.

Dave

#35 SQ93

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 12:53 AM

On the pics, etc.

I actually forgot to take a pic of the side of the LCA that the shop welded prior to Skip and I doing the damage beating on it trying to remove it. But as you can see it was pretty wimpy.

The car has lived it's life in the Pittsburgh area. I doubt it's actually set around in salt water.

I can invision it setting in a driveway or two, along a wall on the right side, perhaps under a tree. I found no tree remnants on it in the cowl, paint stains, etc.

So far so good. He says the odometer is off about 8 MPH at 60 MPH(he's really doing more like 50 MPH). It had 14" 185/70/14's on it with factory steel wheels and hubcaps, and I put the same size aluminum wheels with winter tires back on it. It's a L model so I would expect 14's. I know most cars overstate MPH a little. Other than different tires (probably 15") I don't know of another way to remedy this. I think he's just gonna have to live with it.

I don't have a vacuum gauge (just a compression gauge) but perhaps I can borrow one if he has any more troubles when it comes back for an oil change or another issue.

Dave


How about an update on this Legacy? How are you doing with it? Thanks! And good luck with it! -sq93

#36 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 01:08 AM

So far so good. He says the odometer is off about 8 MPH at 60 MPH(he's really doing more like 50 MPH). It had 14" 185/70/14's on it with factory steel wheels and hubcaps, and I put the same size aluminum wheels with winter tires back on it. It's a L model so I would expect 14's. I know most cars overstate MPH a little. Other than different tires (probably 15") I don't know of another way to remedy this. I think he's just gonna have to live with it.


My 94 has the same problem - and the speedo responds with a bit of a delay sometimes after driving for a long time (over an hour). I think it's the speedo head itself, but I've also heard something about a drive coupler at the transmission end of the cable. Haven't bothered to sort it out yet....

I'm also running stock 94 GT rims and tires - 14" alloys and 185/70/14's - only about 10k on them.

GD

#37 Cougar

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 02:17 PM

If this is still an ongoing issue I will add my thoughts to this in the hopes it may help out.

My first thought on the issue was something was wrong with the oil passages or pump but after looking again at the lack of power issue when this trouble happens it makes me think the timing is changing somhow and monitoring it with some reference point before the trouble happens and while it is occurring would show if that is causing the problem. What think thee of this thought on the matter fellow Soob enthutheists?

#38 davebugs

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 05:11 PM

Latest update. 68,111 miles - 1k since he got the car.

No more 'weirdnesses' when driving have occured since we were driving to transfer the title 1k ago.

2 issues currently.
First is the odometer is off by 10mph at 60 he says. Has correct size tires on it and no reason to think the rims were ever changed.

Second - PS is low. I think I know what this is. There was a patch on a line - it's the only thing I didn't touch. Everything else Skip and I touched turned into a major ordeal. There is a short metal(24"?) line coming from the drivers side and ending up basically in the middle of the rack. Someone put a rubber hose on it and 4 small hose clamps.

By looking at it I don't think the nut at either end will ever come undone. Simply not enough surface on the nuts. Since it has tubing coming out of it there is no way to pound a socket on. The drivers side if I recall is a bugger to get to. It may not be so bad if the car were new - but not old and rusty.

Anyone have some rusty line patch solutions? I don't know how high pressure this line is. If I remember correctly the line itself doesn't look all that bad - but it must have had a hole in it for someone to patch it.

I did put Lucas PS in it and that's fixed every Subby true rack issue that I've ever had (4 Sub's). On this car I expect the issue to be this line that I have discussed.

Dave

#39 scrapdaddytatum

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 08:25 AM

ever thought a rod/piston pin was moving around, maybe hitting the cyl wall????just a thought
hi skip
j

#40 Skip

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 08:41 AM

Howdy J,
Thanks for the thought.
I guess I have to wonder why the noise quite
if it was a wrist pin moving?

#41 scrapdaddytatum

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 08:50 AM

well could be it has rehung inside the sirclip ring??
i had one make the rod slap noise then stop
made it for 10k at least, then it just stoped one day
about 12k latter the motor let go
broken crank/rod/piston
it was ugly
but i was pushing big boost when it let go

#42 davebugs

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 10:06 AM

A small update.

I talked with him yesterday. An accessory belt was loose and squealing so they tightened it. It's looking like the PS noise was just the belt - that would be nice.

Other than the fact that when installing a stereo they must have cut the dash light wire all seems well.

No more weirdness's since when we were going to the notary. Still has 20w50 in it and I'm gonna try and get the car, service it, look around at Skip and I's work, get some 5w30 in there, etc.

Anything of note I'll post it here.

Dave

#43 davebugs

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 04:56 PM

Uneventful update.

I changed the oil in this car a few weeks ago. Got that 20w50 out and put some 5w30 in. It's now gone over 3k mile (more like 4k) and no more issues.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Thanks for all the suggestions when we were in the debugging process. I still don't know what the cause was. I did put the swapped out coil pack on another car which I sold shortly thereafter. If that was the problem I'll never know.

Dave




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