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1986 EA82 GL wagon blues


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26 replies to this topic

#1 skagital

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 10:12 PM

Friends, here is my story, I just completed replacing the cracked heads on my barnyard wagon and it runs terrible. Prior to dissassembly I took a bunch of pictures of the engine assembly and put the thing back together the bests I can tell. So at any rate here's what I need help with. 1)engine does not idle smoothly 2)intermittently misfires under load and has a tendency to ping 3)alot of carbon build-up/fouling on the plugs 4)I hate all the vacuum lines 5)will not exceed 55-60 mph on flat ground, does ok going downhill 6)if I cannot find a solution to the exsiting drivability issues I am considering going with the aftermarket weber carb conversion. 7)did I mention I hate all the vacuum lines
any help, suggestions, idears would be greatly appreciated. I would really like to use this vehicle but I am at wits end... thanks AL:( :-\

#2 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 10:33 PM

Well - we are going to need a lot more information to assist you.

It sounds like you have some issues with fuel delivery (Hitachi carb right?), and possibly some ignition problems.

We need to know if this thing is feedback or not for one thing.

Fuel, Air, and Spark. Give us something to work with. What tests have you done - what was good and what wasn't? Do you know how to read a vacuum gauge? You can tell a lot from a few vacuum readings....

GD

#3 skagital

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:04 AM

yes the carb is a Hitachi feedback. I had the carb apart and installed a Napa brand carb kit. just rechecked and readjusted float per the instructions today. I checked the ignition wires for resistance and they come in around 6K ohms per foot of lead. no cracks in the distributor cap and rotor appears to be fine. I replaced the coil due to the electrode being corroded and seperated from the coil tower. Last week I took a vacuum reading it was about 17 in HG and read late timing in which I retimed the engine. I did not recheck with the vacuum gage.


Well - we are going to need a lot more information to assist you.

It sounds like you have some issues with fuel delivery (Hitachi carb right?), and possibly some ignition problems.

We need to know if this thing is feedback or not for one thing.

Fuel, Air, and Spark. Give us something to work with. What tests have you done - what was good and what wasn't? Do you know how to read a vacuum gauge? You can tell a lot from a few vacuum readings....

GD



#4 daeron

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 04:26 AM

My first guess was improper distributor installation, or inaccurate timing.. you DID shoot the timing with a light, right?

anyhow, then I read this:

yes the carb is a Hitachi feedback.


Got a louisville slugger? from what I gather, that is the only tool that is able to properly calibrate the feedback carbs.... all the way to the scrap heap. any chance of converting you to the Weber side of the force? or SPFI?

as many problems as people have with the NON feedback hitachi carbs... and given how few feedback carbs there are compared to standard hitachis... the feedback carb comes up with problems FAR more often than even the standard hitachi carb.

Sorry to be the one to tell you. :-\

#5 ivantruckman

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 08:55 AM

one simple thing to try is check the o2 sensor, my craptachi carb ran 100% better when i replaced the melted o2 wire, if you have a vaccume guage it can tell you a lot too

#6 skagital

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 01:30 PM

I'm gonna hold off for a bit (not to long though) and see what other info I can gain from USMB. I hate to throw a carb at the thing until I'm certain its the cure. I appreciate the bad news though, its better than pulling any hair out of this bald head of mine




My first guess was improper distributor installation, or inaccurate timing.. you DID shoot the timing with a light, right?

anyhow, then I read this:



Got a louisville slugger? from what I gather, that is the only tool that is able to properly calibrate the feedback carbs.... all the way to the scrap heap. any chance of converting you to the Weber side of the force? or SPFI?

as many problems as people have with the NON feedback hitachi carbs... and given how few feedback carbs there are compared to standard hitachis... the feedback carb comes up with problems FAR more often than even the standard hitachi carb.

Sorry to be the one to tell you. :-\



#7 skagital

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 01:31 PM

good idear, as soon as the weather clears I check it out. thanks AL

one simple thing to try is check the o2 sensor, my craptachi carb ran 100% better when i replaced the melted o2 wire, if you have a vaccume guage it can tell you a lot too



#8 DaveT

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 08:31 PM

You had the heads off. You had the timing belts off. Are you 100% sure you got them back on right? There are a few tricks that many new to subaru people miss...

The 3 tick marks OPPOSITE the timing marks on the flywheel.
One belt on, rotate engine 1 turn, second belt on.

#9 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 10:02 PM

The EA82 feedback is a lost cause. Only fix for it is to throw on a Weber.

Instead of giving yourself a headache, take it from someone that spent the time to understand how the feedback systems works and beat his head against that wall for several years on both the EA81 and the EA82 feedback systems. GARBAGE.

The EA81 feedback *is* workable. It's relatively simple by comparison to the EA82 system (which isn't saying much, the system is still horrifically complex) and if you can bite the bullet on the relatively inexpensive O2 sensors, and the coolant temp sensors it can be made to work reasonably well.

Sadly the EA82 system is far more complex, has more sensors, and can't be made to work well without a LOT of time and money. It's got one sensor (Manifold Pressure Sensor) that costs so much that it's worth it to buy a Weber just on that sensor alone. On top of that it's always the one that's bad - I pulled half a dozen at the junk yards here and all of them were shot.

Learn from my mistake - chuck it in a dumpster. Or at least convert to a non-feedback Hitachi (and watch it devour choke springs :rolleyes:).

GD

#10 Gloyale

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:59 PM

Hello, Unless he has a california model 4x4, he does not have a feedback carb, nor an o2 sensor or ECU to go with. Skagital, you have probably been confused by a chiltons manual; or somnething that does not point out that most hitachis are not feedback(Only 2wd and 4wd Cali models had the ECU controlled "feedback" carb.) It may be(and probably is) a hitachi, just a mechanical one, not a feedback. The carberator itself is basically the same, but has no sensors or solenoids controlling it's operation.

I would check that al vaccum lines are hooked up properly. Also if any of them are brittle at the ends they may leak. Replace them. But if you do replace the vac hoses, make sure you do it one at a time. And cut open the old tubes. A few of them have small plugs witrh tiny holes. These are to limit vaccuum to certain functions of the system. You must recover them from the old hose pop them into the new before installing.

#11 archemitis

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 01:53 PM

every subaru i've ever had had a feedback carb. my 86 ea81, my 84 ea81, my 86 ea82, my 86 brat...none were built for cali.
i think the "rebuild" on the carb may be the prob. whenever anybody takes one apart its all over.
i've had good luck with removing every hose except fuel in(no return, or vent), vac advance for your disty, brake booster and cabin air controll.

#12 cd45

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 07:37 AM

I disconnected everything from mine, even installed a manual choke. It runs a lot better than it did. I am still going to replace the whole carb with a Weber. The Brat had one when I brought it home, and it is so much nicer to work on. Now to do the wagon.

#13 Gloyale

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 02:35 PM

every subaru i've ever had had a feedback carb. my 86 ea81, my 84 ea81, my 86 ea82, my 86 brat...none were built for cali.
i think the "rebuild" on the carb may be the prob. whenever anybody takes one apart its all over.
i've had good luck with removing every hose except fuel in(no return, or vent), vac advance for your disty, brake booster and cabin air controll.


Well, I can only speak for the EA82s as I don;t really know the 81s so well. But For certain, unless you're 86 was 2wd or for Cali it did not have a feedback carb. What makes it a feedback systerm is that there is an ECU under the dash and an O2 sensor to monitor exhaust. Then the computer controils a series of solenoids to adjust the fuel delivery.

All 49 state, 4wd, Carbed models of ea82s had conventional, mechanical carbs. Only electronics on them is the bowl vent solenoid, the anti-diesel solenoid, and the electric choke element. Non of which require a computer to control, all done with relays.

Oh yeah, removing all the stuff that engineers put in and then asking "why doesn't this work right?" is like shooting yourself in the foot and wondering why it hurts.

#14 archemitis

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 03:18 PM

not sure goyale.
if modifying a subaru is shooting myself in the foot, im screwed...

#15 daeron

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 04:30 PM

not sure goyale.
if modifying a subaru is shooting myself in the foot, im screwed...

I Think he meant, removing the crap for the carb, that was there to make that carb work right..... and then wondering why that carb didnt work right. NOT Just, modifying in general.


On a related note, I have always wanted to get a cross-hair or a bullethole tattoo'd on the top of my foot......:dead:

#16 archemitis

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 08:46 PM

thats what im saying, you can remove it all and it will still work right =]

#17 skagital

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 09:52 PM

10/4 double and triple checked the installation, and than I redid the whole evolution one more time just to make sure I got it right. Appreciate the imput...
thanks AL

You had the heads off. You had the timing belts off. Are you 100% sure you got them back on right? There are a few tricks that many new to subaru people miss...

The 3 tick marks OPPOSITE the timing marks on the flywheel.
One belt on, rotate engine 1 turn, second belt on.



#18 skagital

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 09:59 PM

it's a feedback carb for sure, model DCZ-328, yeah I sprayed gunk all around the vac lines/fittings no change in engine runability. thanks for the help AL

Hello, Unless he has a california model 4x4, he does not have a feedback carb, nor an o2 sensor or ECU to go with. Skagital, you have probably been confused by a chiltons manual; or somnething that does not point out that most hitachis are not feedback(Only 2wd and 4wd Cali models had the ECU controlled "feedback" carb.) It may be(and probably is) a hitachi, just a mechanical one, not a feedback. The carberator itself is basically the same, but has no sensors or solenoids controlling it's operation.

I would check that al vaccum lines are hooked up properly. Also if any of them are brittle at the ends they may leak. Replace them. But if you do replace the vac hoses, make sure you do it one at a time. And cut open the old tubes. A few of them have small plugs witrh tiny holes. These are to limit vaccuum to certain functions of the system. You must recover them from the old hose pop them into the new before installing.



#19 Gloyale

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 10:02 PM

it's a feedback carb for sure, model DCZ-328, yeah I sprayed gunk all around the vac lines/fittings no change in engine runability. thanks for the help AL


Then why don't you read the codes on the ECU and then tell us the problem. It's under the steering column. Have you checked the O2 sensor?

#20 skagital

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 10:08 PM

I've invested enough time in this thing and researched enough info to come to the conclusion its time to do the weber thing, this far up north the wa. state clean air act stops at Snohomish/Skagit county line so no worries with the WA. state clean air act BS. Any rate before going on line to search out autopart suppliers any suggestions on a place to shop, I'm just like the rest of you good folk, moneys tough to come by...
thanks AL

The EA82 feedback is a lost cause. Only fix for it is to throw on a Weber.

Instead of giving yourself a headache, take it from someone that spent the time to understand how the feedback systems works and beat his head against that wall for several years on both the EA81 and the EA82 feedback systems. GARBAGE.

The EA81 feedback *is* workable. It's relatively simple by comparison to the EA82 system (which isn't saying much, the system is still horrifically complex) and if you can bite the bullet on the relatively inexpensive O2 sensors, and the coolant temp sensors it can be made to work reasonably well.

Sadly the EA82 system is far more complex, has more sensors, and can't be made to work well without a LOT of time and money. It's got one sensor (Manifold Pressure Sensor) that costs so much that it's worth it to buy a Weber just on that sensor alone. On top of that it's always the one that's bad - I pulled half a dozen at the junk yards here and all of them were shot.

Learn from my mistake - chuck it in a dumpster. Or at least convert to a non-feedback Hitachi (and watch it devour choke springs :rolleyes:).

GD



#21 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 10:10 PM

If my experience, and the experience of many others here is any sort of metric on this, there were MANY more feedback models made than just the ones shipped to CA. I've owned several personally as have many members throughout the US. Despite what Subaru may have called them, they were definately sold in more than just CA.

I can go to my local yards and on a normal day 25% or more are feedback (out of those that are carbed). That's how I've been able to find used parts to try and resurrect several feedback systems to correct functioning. Alas it's a lost cause.

At any rate he does have one as he just confirmed it. But just to make extra sure - DOES IT HAVE AN O2??

DCZ-328 means nothing - all EA82 Hitachi's are DCZ-328's. Just as all EA81 Hitachi's are DCP-306's. The last 3 numbers indicate the barrel sizes. The EA81 is a 26/30, and the EA82 is a 28/32.

GD

#22 skagital

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 10:11 PM

DUH on me, with not seeing any kind of MIL light on the dash I plum forgot all about that. I will do that and thanks for the suggestion,

Then why don't you read the codes on the ECU and then tell us the problem. It's under the steering column. Have you checked the O2 sensor?



#23 skagital

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 10:14 PM

all right, I be checking for O2 and will pull codes this weekend, and get back to ya.

If my experience, and the experience of many others here is any sort of metric on this, there were MANY more feedback models made than just the ones shipped to CA. I've owned several personally as have many members throughout the US. Despite what Subaru may have called them, they were definately sold in more than just CA.

I can go to my local yards and on a normal day 25% or more are feedback (out of those that are carbed). That's how I've been able to find used parts to try and resurrect several feedback systems to correct functioning. Alas it's a lost cause.

At any rate he does have one as he just confirmed it. But just to make extra sure - DOES IT HAVE AN O2??

DCZ-328 means nothing - all EA82 Hitachi's are DCZ-328's. Just as all EA81 Hitachi's are DCP-306's. The last 3 numbers indicate the barrel sizes. The EA81 is a 26/30, and the EA82 is a 28/32.

GD



#24 skagital

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 06:29 PM

OK GD, and all others that posted a reply, first of all I'm heading out to Philly for the holiday be back next month. Everybody have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING, oh yeah it does not have an O2. I searched out and found your write-up on changing over to an SPFI. Alot of good info, and in condsidering going junkyarding to get the required parts. Problem is I can't find it again to print it out so what is it titled under?.
thanks again
AL

If my experience, and the experience of many others here is any sort of metric on this, there were MANY more feedback models made than just the ones shipped to CA. I've owned several personally as have many members throughout the US. Despite what Subaru may have called them, they were definately sold in more than just CA.

I can go to my local yards and on a normal day 25% or more are feedback (out of those that are carbed). That's how I've been able to find used parts to try and resurrect several feedback systems to correct functioning. Alas it's a lost cause.

At any rate he does have one as he just confirmed it. But just to make extra sure - DOES IT HAVE AN O2??

DCZ-328 means nothing - all EA82 Hitachi's are DCZ-328's. Just as all EA81 Hitachi's are DCP-306's. The last 3 numbers indicate the barrel sizes. The EA81 is a 26/30, and the EA82 is a 28/32.

GD



#25 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 08:16 PM

OK GD, and all others that posted a reply, first of all I'm heading out to Philly for the holiday be back next month. Everybody have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING, oh yeah it does not have an O2. I searched out and found your write-up on changing over to an SPFI. Alot of good info, and in condsidering going junkyarding to get the required parts. Problem is I can't find it again to print it out so what is it titled under?.
thanks again
AL


Here ya go - it's geared towards EA81's, but there's a link at the bottom to Snowman's original write up for EA82's. Between the two you should be good:

http://home.comcast..../EA81_SPFI.html

GD




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