Jump to content


Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, my lurker friend!

Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, an unparalleled Subaru community full of the greatest Subaru gurus and modders on the planet! We offer technical information and discussion about all things Subaru, the best and most popular all wheel drive vehicles ever created.

We offer all this information for free to everyone, even lurkers like you! All we ask in return is that you sign up and give back some of what you get out - without our awesome registered users none of this would be possible! Plus, you get way more great stuff as a member! Lurk to lose, participate to WIN*!
  • Say hello and join the conversation
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Classifieds with all sorts of Subaru goodies
  • Photo hosting in our gallery
  • Meet other cool people with cool cars
Seriously, what are you waiting for? Make your life more fulfilling and join today! You and your Subaru won't regret it, we guarantee** it.

* The joy of participation and being generally awesome constitutes winning
** Not an actual guarantee, but seriously, you probably won't regret it!

Serving the Subaru Community since May 18th, 1998!

Guest Message by DevFuse
 

Photo
- - - - -

96 2.5l OBW not starting


  • Please log in to reply
158 replies to this topic

#1 sublute

sublute

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 140 posts
  • Baltimore

Posted 16 November 2007 - 10:53 AM

Hello, I'm starting a new thread the old one was "96 2.5l OBW head gasket project" and was 12 pages long...

Background, the car is back together and not starting. It's getting plenty of fuel, compression is good. I see a spark at each cyl. although I'm a little suspect about the spark quality. The coilpack measures 1 ohm across the primary and flashes 19k across 1-2 and 3-4. That seems right?

What should I check next?

#2 tomson1355

tomson1355

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 155 posts
  • Upstate

Posted 16 November 2007 - 11:18 AM

Your sanity, as this must be driving you nuts.

Something is different, obviously, and I'd be looking at things that were disconnected and reconnected. Vacuum, grounds, and electricals. Have you put a vacuum guage on the manifold while you crank? It may tell you something.

Good luck. I'm pullin' for ya.

Tom

#3 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,954 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 16 November 2007 - 11:52 AM

Do you hear the fuel injectors clicking (how do you know you have plenty of fuel).

Crank sensor is spark, cam is fuel timing.

Double check your timing belt marks.

Check the cam and crank sensors for proper heartbeats in one full turn of the crankshaft.

Check compression.

Check the engine temp sensor.

nipper

#4 sublute

sublute

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 140 posts
  • Baltimore

Posted 16 November 2007 - 01:31 PM

Yes, this is driving me NUTS!!!!! but at the same time, it is forcing me to understand this EJ25 engine which is good.... I will be armed for any future situations. Although I have not had that many no-start situations with all my Subarus and then it was always quick fix....

Thanks nipper for the sensor information. Crank is spark and cam is fuel... I'm still curious how it tells the difference between compression stroke and exhaust? The crank reluctor has 6 trigger points and I can't remember how many on the timing pulley. Does the grouping of two reluctor points reference the stroke?

I took the t-belt off and put it back on...check. The dashed line is on the crank reluctor/case marks and the other four line up correctly. Subaru OEM belt.

The plugs are wet, and I unhooked the fuel line, put it in a container and plenty came out when I cranked. At one point I dryed the plugs out and blew compressed air into each cyl to clear gas. Could the injectors be dumping too much gas in?s

I can't say that I hear the injectors clicking, but I'm cranking from inside the car... I do hear a very faint hum or sound coming from the throttle sensor after an attempt at starting. I goes away after a short while.

Compression-
#1-175
#3-165
#2-173
#4-I just couldn't get the plug out last night... the other numbers seemed OK, so WTF... I forgot to open the throttle and disconnect the fuel when doing this test...

I'll have to find out how to check the sensors for the pulse... I should rig up a switch to crank the engine from the compartment...

My cheapo vacuum guage was stolen with my tools years ago and I have refused to pay $25 now for one that doesn't look any better than on I paid a couple bucks for. (Cheapskate...) I need one though...

I have been back over every connection over and over. I made sure they were seated firmly and clicked

#5 RallyKeith

RallyKeith

    Got Subaru(s)?

  • Members
  • 1,486 posts
  • Reading, Pa

Posted 16 November 2007 - 02:16 PM

If the plugs are wet from fuel that is not good. You could have fouled them. You may want to try replacing them.

Keith

#6 grossgary

grossgary

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 20,641 posts
  • WV

Posted 16 November 2007 - 02:21 PM

i would try replacing the ignition coil. electrical testing doesn't always indicate their health very accurately.
i asked in the other thread - the spark plugs wires aren't in the wrong order are they, installed in the wrong place?

#7 mnwolftrack

mnwolftrack

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 205 posts
  • Up North Eh

Posted 16 November 2007 - 03:07 PM

random thought... does anyone know if all the cam pulleys are the same? I know two go on with the lip towards the inside, and the other two with the lip toward the outside, but the two that have the lip on the same side, do they also have the magnets/triggers for the sensors? And if yes, could the pulleys have been installed on the wrong cams?

Sublute--don't go taking apart your belt again to find out. I am just thinking out loud. I didn't pay close enough attention to my cam pulleys when I took them out because I labeled them all well enough that I wasn't concerned about putting them back in the wrong spot.

#8 sublute

sublute

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 140 posts
  • Baltimore

Posted 16 November 2007 - 04:09 PM

Hello, I am almost positive that I installed the proper cam pulleys in the proper position. They are marked R andL IN and OUT and it's obvious which one has the magnets in it.

It seems so incredibly hard to hook up spark plug wires on the engine. It seems like one could do it blind.... mount the coil up side down and the primary hook up doesn't reach... direct relation to each cylinder plug... The easiest layout ever...

If a plug is saturated with fuel doesn't mean you have to throw them out??? Does it??? At one point, I took all four out blew them out with comp. air, dried them with a 500 watt heat lamp, put a rubber tube on the air nozzle and blew each cyl. out to clear fuel.

I am trying to find how to check the crank and cam sensor right now. I can't find it in the OEM manual. It just says check sensors and gives a section 2-7 10AKO. Darned if I can find it. Haynes says check the resistance, but gives no values.

It has been so long since I considered hooking up a remote starting switch, how does it go? battery+ terminal to the spade lug on the starter?

#9 sublute

sublute

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 140 posts
  • Baltimore

Posted 16 November 2007 - 04:31 PM

Is there any way I could have damaged the TPS or Idle air control air valve when I was spraying gum-out and wiping out the throttle body when I had the intake manifold off?

#10 subaru360

subaru360

    has no catchy title

  • Members
  • 1,282 posts
  • Fleetwood, PA

Posted 16 November 2007 - 04:36 PM

Did you plug the coolant temperature sensor back in? That would make it hard to start and flood it fouling the plugs.

#11 sublute

sublute

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 140 posts
  • Baltimore

Posted 16 November 2007 - 07:06 PM

Coolant temp. sensor. Check. Casualty the Y tube connector broke from the oil separator to PCV to air intake. Plastic POS.... I'll try to epoxy it together. Actually, it broke on assemble and I glued it once.... I'm not sure it will glue. I'll check the local Subaru supply place. Also, a little piece of rubber tubing that connects from the intake manifold to the fuel rail and some other thing on the wheel well.. I will have to check in my tubing section. Should have something that will work there.

I checked the crank and cam sensors and get a 1.9k ohm reading and then an AC reading when turning the crank by hand yielded very small blips on the analog VOM 2.5 VAC scale. I couldn't really discern a pattern as I was busy trying to turn the crank and read. I tried the DMM on the 2 volt scale and the highest reading was~.05 volt blips from both sensors. Sound OK to you???

#12 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,954 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 16 November 2007 - 07:13 PM

Coolant temp. sensor. Check. Casualty the Y tube connector broke from the oil separator to PCV to air intake. Plastic POS.... I'll try to epoxy it together. Actually, it broke on assemble and I glued it once.... I'm not sure it will glue. I'll check the local Subaru supply place. Also, a little piece of rubber tubing that connects from the intake manifold to the fuel rail and some other thing on the wheel well.. I will have to check in my tubing section. Should have something that will work there.

I checked the crank and cam sensors and get a 1.9k ohm reading and then an AC reading when turning the crank by hand yielded very small blips on the analog VOM 2.5 VAC scale. I couldn't really discern a pattern as I was busy trying to turn the crank and read. I tried the DMM on the 2 volt scale and the highest reading was~.05 volt blips from both sensors. Sound OK to you???


any postion sesnor you arent really loking for resistamnce, your looking for an AC heartbeat. YOu need to go one full cycle and make sure all the teeth are read by the sensor. Its not unheard of to have a tooth break off.

nipper

#13 sublute

sublute

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 140 posts
  • Baltimore

Posted 16 November 2007 - 07:25 PM

For the crank sensor I'm fairly sure I read 6 blips in a rotation. I rotated it several times reading on an analog VOM and also a DMM. All the tabs were on the crank reluctor when I looked at it the other night. Seems like it would take something major(drop) to break one of those off.

I couldn't figure out the pattern for the cam sensor but it was blipping~ .03-.05 VAC in a pattern. What is the pattern supposed to be for the cam?
96 EJ25l

I forget, to crank the engine with a switch from the engine compartment, does the switch go from the batt+ side to the spade (selenoid?)connector on the starter? I could get a better idea of the pattern then. I might even be tempted to get out the old sillyscope.

#14 subaru360

subaru360

    has no catchy title

  • Members
  • 1,282 posts
  • Fleetwood, PA

Posted 16 November 2007 - 08:28 PM

The remote starter switch can go from either the battery positive or the battery cable positive terminal on the starter to the male spade terminal on the starter.

#15 sublute

sublute

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 140 posts
  • Baltimore

Posted 16 November 2007 - 08:49 PM

Thanks, should I take off the fuel line when doing this cranking?

#16 subaru360

subaru360

    has no catchy title

  • Members
  • 1,282 posts
  • Fleetwood, PA

Posted 16 November 2007 - 09:23 PM

If you take the fuel line off it will spray fuel all over if you turn the key on. Do you mean while checking sensors? If so, no need to disconnect anything.

#17 sublute

sublute

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 140 posts
  • Baltimore

Posted 16 November 2007 - 10:16 PM

Well, I would have plugged it...

I may get out the sillyscope and try to look at the blips, tomorrow.

I guess then I'll start down the diagnoatics "engine not start" in the OEM manual. It is for '97 and mine is 96. eveything so far has been the same. Maybe I'll need to "rent" a code reader from Autozone.

I can't understand why it doesn't start. It was running just fine before I started this whole process.

#18 OB99W

OB99W

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 3,315 posts
  • Ithaca

Posted 17 November 2007 - 08:18 AM

Sublute, I just started reading this thread, and then read your previous one. In that previous thread, you said "spark seems kinda wierd? it seems to be firing too often and maybe weak.". You should see firing at what appears to be twice the "expected" rate; that's due to the "wasted spark" type of ignition. The plugs for cylinders #1 and #2 are fired simultaneously (as are #3 and #4); the paired plugs connect to each end of one of the secondary coils in the coil pack, and are effectively in series. Under normal circumstances, one of the paired cylinders is on the power stroke when the other is on an exhaust stroke. The spark at the cylinder on a power stroke should, of course, fire the mixture, while the spark at the one on an exhaust stroke is "wasted"; some spark energy is lost, but it's minimal (just a few kilovolts drop) since that cylinder isn't under compression at the time.

If you have a timing light, you might want to see what it indicates. It should be possible to get it to trigger during cranking, even if the engine won't run.

#19 OB99W

OB99W

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 3,315 posts
  • Ithaca

Posted 17 November 2007 - 08:32 AM

If you haven't seen this already, it might be informative: http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/DirectIgnition.pdf
However, there are errors -- in the "Ignition Coil Testing" section, the terminal numbers listed are reversed between the primary and secondary; the diagram is labeled correctly.

This might also be worth reading: http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/IgnitionCoilSum04.pdf

#20 grossgary

grossgary

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 20,641 posts
  • WV

Posted 17 November 2007 - 08:58 AM

the Y tube connector broke from the oil separator to PCV to air intake. Plastic POS.... I'll try to epoxy it together. Actually, it broke on assemble and I glued it once.... I'm not sure it will glue. I'll check the local Subaru supply place. Also, a little piece of rubber tubing that connects from the intake manifold to the fuel rail and some other thing on the wheel well.


i'm not 100% sure what hoses you are talking about but i know for a fact that a 1997 EJ25 will not start with vaccum lines broken, seen it. it just cranks and cranks. if you have a disconnected, broken or misrouted hose that may be your problem.

#21 sublute

sublute

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 140 posts
  • Baltimore

Posted 17 November 2007 - 09:31 AM

Yes, the spark seemed too often and the wasted spark makes sense now. I didn't know about that. That also answers my question about the crank reluctor. I'll drag out the timing light and check it out.

I did find the DirectIgnition.pdf and was scanning it. Thanks for the other link. I caught myself trying to figure out where to support when I was leaning over the engine...

I broke this one vacuum hose digging to check the if the coolant temp connector was attached. It was OK while I was trying to start the engine. The PCV Y-connector was glued and may have been leaky... I'm making a second attempt at gluing it. I'll get a replacement later.

I have been looking and looking for anything I missed hooking up. I was being very careful not to leave any stray ends...

#22 grossgary

grossgary

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 20,641 posts
  • WV

Posted 17 November 2007 - 10:39 AM

how about the brake booster vaccuum hose, is that one connected properly?

#23 sublute

sublute

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 140 posts
  • Baltimore

Posted 17 November 2007 - 10:53 AM

Yup, That one is right on top staring you in the face.... I'm not looking at it this moment and I will double check it...

Could I have messed something up when I was cranking the engine to circulate oil and I didn't have the coil pack plugged in?

The CEL light comes on when I turn the ignition switch and stays on while I crank and goes off when I turn it off. What is the indication that it is collecting codes?

#24 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,954 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 17 November 2007 - 10:56 AM

Yup, That one is right on top staring you in the face.... I'm not looking at it this moment and I will double check it...

Could I have messed something up when I was cranking the engine to circulate oil and I didn't have the coil pack plugged in?

The CEL light comes on when I turn the ignition switch and stays on while I crank and goes off when I turn it off. What is the indication that it is collecting codes?


nope

Engine has to run in order for it to collect codes, otherwise all the senosrs would come back as failed.

DOuble check all your electrical connections. Unplug and plug them all together.

nipper

#25 sublute

sublute

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 140 posts
  • Baltimore

Posted 17 November 2007 - 11:06 AM

Hello Yes, I've been doing that. I've just been going over every connection. I'm unhooking and unplugging and replugging just in case it didn't click or seat.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users