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92 Loyale 3AT 4WD won't go into any gear. Lost all gears at cruising speed on highway


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16 replies to this topic

#1 Slagathor1

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 06:31 PM

92 Loyale 3AT 4WD won't shift into any drive gear. It does still lock when it's in park though like it should. The shifter will move just fine like always & the linkage is still attached to the tranny.
I was driving down the highway yesterday about 60 MPH & all of a sudden the car just went out of gear. It didn't make ANY funny noises or anything like that at all. I coasted to the side of the highway & reved the motor in every gear but nothing changed.
After getting it towed home I checked:
1. tranny fluid, plenty of it & no shavings
2. vacuum line going to the vacuum modulator, hose has vacuum. checked it right at the modulator, so the line definately isn't blocked
3. vacuum modulator, took it out & checked it on another vacuum hose, it didn't seem to be leaking vacuum & did move in & out like it should
4. shift linkage, it seems to be just fine
5. put it into 4WD, still wouldn't move
6. checked front drive axles & joints, nothing busted

Now here's the weird part though. Ever since it lost it's drive gears the engine seems to be having a tendancy to run a little funny once it gets warmed up & idles down.
I'm at a complete loss on this one. The only things I could even think of is that maybe the vacuum modulator IS bad but I don't think that would make the car lose gears all together would it? I mean there was a tiny little bit of tranny fluid in the vacuum hose in the very end. Not enough to suck up into the engine though.
Or........(And I may be just talking out of my butt on this one) Could the kickdown solenoid maybe have went bad, like maybe engaged & not returned back out? Could that knock the car out of gear somehow? I was at a steady cruise on the highway, so I definately didn't engage it by mashing the pedal to the floor.

If anyone can pick this one apart i'd appreciate it. I'm confused.

Tony

#2 nipper

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 07:33 PM

your hoping for the best, but its something else. With a sudden no warning failure, i would suspect either the Torque converter, or the front pump went out. Without either your not going anywhere. Anything else would have given you warning signs.

Drop the pan and see what if any horrible things are in it.

nipper

#3 Slagathor1

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 03:55 AM

Thanks Nipper. Do you or anyone else know of any online manuals & especially breakdowns/illustrations for this tranny? My trusty old Haynes Subaru manual doesn't get into trannys very deep. Unfortunately, transmissions are just about the only thing on vehicles that i'm not very knowledgeable on. I knew this day would come eventually.:confused: GRRRR!!!
Also if anyone else has ANY other opinions on this topic i'd appreciate it. Not doubting Nipper at all, just wanting more ideas or personal experiences before I start ripping into this thing & spending more money & time on it.

I still think it's awful weird that the engine has been running a little worse at idle ever since this whole thing happened. Coincidence? Ghosts?

#4 Bucky92

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 07:46 AM

sounds like its time for a 5 spd swap???:grin: ;)

But honestly...seriously..would solve all your problems there. It might be something to think about..unless there are reasons why the "need" for the AT is there..then ..well..I know very little about ATs except they can be alittle pricey to rebuild

#5 nipper

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 10:33 AM

Thanks Nipper. Do you or anyone else know of any online manuals & especially breakdowns/illustrations for this tranny? My trusty old Haynes Subaru manual doesn't get into trannys very deep. Unfortunately, transmissions are just about the only thing on vehicles that i'm not very knowledgeable on. I knew this day would come eventually.:confused: GRRRR!!!
Also if anyone else has ANY other opinions on this topic i'd appreciate it. Not doubting Nipper at all, just wanting more ideas or personal experiences before I start ripping into this thing & spending more money & time on it.

I still think it's awful weird that the engine has been running a little worse at idle ever since this whole thing happened. Coincidence? Ghosts?


you dont wuv me .....

im going to the outback boards....

waaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Well there is another possability, that the flex plat snapped. Yes idle would be rougher since all this stuff is copnnected to the engine directly and since its busticated can be throwing things out of balance, or making a drag. The flex plate torque converter and front pump are all directly connected to the engine.

nipper

#6 Slagathor1

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 02:56 PM

Ok here's the latest. This may help put our finger on the problem.
I ran the car through all the gears & watched the speedometer, and it didn't move. Also I pulled the transmission fluid cooling line off of the radiator and it didn't have any pressure in the line whatsoever with the car running. Which would more likely cause this, the torque converter or the pump? Or both?
I'm heading back out now to drain the tranny fluid & see if there are any neat things laying in the tranny pan.

P.S. Oh yeah I just remembered: This past summer the tranny did have an audible whining sound to it even with plenty of fluid in it. I changed the fluid & the whining pretty much went away in a few days.

#7 nipper

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 04:25 PM

Also I pulled the transmission fluid cooling line off of the radiator and it didn't have any pressure in the line whatsoever with the car running.

P.S. Oh yeah I just remembered: This past summer the tranny did have an audible whining sound to it even with plenty of fluid in it. I changed the fluid & the whining pretty much went away in a few days.


Dont bother dropping the pan, it's done.


Your front pump is shot.

nipper

#8 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 04:33 PM

Pump is shot. Get another tranny. All the kings horses, and all the kings men wouldn't be able to fix it - because of the kings ransom it would cost. They haven't made the 3AT for going on 14 years now - since the last Loyale rolled away - and at this point it's just cheaper to put in another one or a 5 speed as no one rebuilds these things. Once they lose oil pressure like that the internals are finished. Pump bits spread through the whole hydraulic system.... time for a 5 speed. Sorry about your luck.

GD

#9 Slagathor1

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 06:34 PM

Doesn't sound very hopeful huh? Well regardless let me tell you guys what I found in the tranny pan. It really didn't look that bad at all. Just a little bit of normal sludge in the bottom & the fluid still looked pretty clean. There were no pieces of anything laying in the pan except for extremely tiny bits of metal, the kind that I would expect through normal wear. There wasn't really very much of it at all. I also found a couple pieces of old thin paper gasket material from possibly a pan drop in the past. Someone probably just didn't wanna fish them out of the pan when they dropped in.
Anyway I don't know if this changes your mind as far as how bad the tranny is or not.
So is this pump not available anymore on the market as far as getting a new one? If a guy was to try putting a new one in is it a pretty easy swap once the tranny is out?
I know ya'll said it doesn't look good but i'm sure you understand i'm just weighing every available option right now, mainly because of $$$$$$. The car is in awesome shape & I really don't want to give up on it if I can fix it for cheap.

#10 ivantruckman

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 06:47 PM

[quote name='Slagathor1']Thanks Nipper. Do you or anyone else know of any online manuals & especially breakdowns/illustrations for this tranny? My


go to this web site "www.atsg.biz" search under foreighn cars, subaru is near the bottom of the page, this is an exhaustive manual on the 3 speed transaxle
be aware this is a very complicated transaxle, their is a ebay store that sells astg manuals for 15 bucks, instead of astg' s price of 25 bucks. i may get in trouble if i scan in the manual. i dont wanna get usmb in trouble either, sorry

do an ebay search for "astg manuals"

#11 nipper

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 06:53 PM

When the pump goes bad, it puts metail particles throughout the hydrualic system, including the torque converter and radiator cooler.

Its just much easier to get a used tranny.

nipper

#12 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 08:25 PM

When the pump goes bad, it puts metail particles throughout the hydrualic system, including the torque converter and radiator cooler.

Its just much easier to get a used tranny.

nipper


Right - in order to fix it would require it to be completely torn down. Each component cleaned, and many replaced that aren't serviceable (hydraulic valves, torque converter, etc). All these parts alone would cost 2 or 3 times what a good used 3AT with it's TC would cost you. Either way you have to drop the tranny to do the job, so why not spend the money on a flywheel, clutch, and pedal assembly and install a 5 speed? Better mileage, better power, more reliable, and cheaper both in terms of parts, and labor compared with rebuilding that auto. Plus the 5 speed's are easily good for 500,000 miles (under normal driving) and a used 3AT might already be on it's last legs.

Beleive us when we tell you the tranny is not worth rebuilding, and only worth replacing if you have a very good reason to need an auto and can find a low mileage used one.

GD

#13 nipper

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 11:56 PM

Doesn't sound very hopeful huh? Well regardless let me tell you guys what I found in the tranny pan. It really didn't look that bad at all. Just a little bit of normal sludge in the bottom & the fluid still looked pretty clean. There were no pieces of anything laying in the pan except for extremely tiny bits of metal, the kind that I would expect through normal wear. There wasn't really very much of it at all. I also found a couple pieces of old thin paper gasket material from possibly a pan drop in the past. Someone probably just didn't wanna fish them out of the pan when they dropped in.
Anyway I don't know if this changes your mind as far as how bad the tranny is or not.
So is this pump not available anymore on the market as far as getting a new one? If a guy was to try putting a new one in is it a pretty easy swap once the tranny is out?
I know ya'll said it doesn't look good but i'm sure you understand i'm just weighing every available option right now, mainly because of $$$$$$. The car is in awesome shape & I really don't want to give up on it if I can fix it for cheap.


To replace the pump, 1st step is to remove the transmission. 2nd step is to dissassemble the front of the tranny. Third is to try and actually find a pump.

There is penny wise and dollar foolish. Trying to rebuild a tranny yourself is dollar foolish when used ones are available, especially considering you need a differnt torque converter since this one may be full of bits.

Good luck, i'm unsubscribing from this thread.

nipper

#14 Slagathor1

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 03:41 AM

Point taken. Thanks a bunch for all the info everyone, I really do appreciate it!! Welp, I'm off to find a used tranny in one of the most Subaru-less parts of the USA, southern Illinois!! My best hope is that my old 89' DL that I sold to a guy early this year for a parts car is still in the salvage yard with it's tranny. When I sold it the motor & tranny were strong as ever. The body, frame, & gas tank were so rusted that it had to be retired from the road but the drivetrain was everything that my 92' wishes it had. Hmmmmm.....while i'm there get the motor with the tranny altogether & do a full swap?:rolleyes: I Might just have to warm up the ole' cherry picker.:grin:
If the old car isn't there anymore I may be sunk.

#15 Hondasucks

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 03:54 AM

Take your starter out and see if you can rotate your torque converter by hand, you MIGHT have somehow sheared the bolts that attach the TC to the flexplate.. I've also seen flex plates crack around where they bolt to the crank.. Either one will require yankin the tranny or motor to fix though.

But if it's not something stupid, I wouldn't try rebuilding it, I've rebuilt one of those before. Parts ARE still available, Transtar Industries sells 'em although not everything is available, and it'd be cheaper and easier to go with a known good unit, or a 5 speed conversion (NOT hard).

As for the pump, it COULD very well be the pump drive shaft, I have no idea why it would break, but it's possible, the drive shaft runs down the center of the input shaft to the rear of the center section of the transaxle where the pump is located. Weird thing is you said it didn't make any noise, just up and puked which is weird to me... Sucks you're in Illinois as I have most of the parts for a 5 speed conversion, minus the drive shaft and pedal box...

#16 Slagathor1

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 03:51 PM

Thanks for the suggestion, I went out today & checked to see if the converter was still attached to the flywheel. It was. Oh well it was worth a shot. Junkyard here I come, unless I can find a company out there that provides these trannys already rebuilt.:lol: I will also keep the 5 speed conversion in mind if i come across one.
I'm gonna go air the tires up on my bicycle now, i'll likely be using it for the next few weeks.:burnout:

#17 Hondasucks

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 04:02 PM

www.txchange.com

Transmission Exchange in Portland, they probably have one in stock, I dunno what it'd cost though + shipping, but it's a safe bet getting one from the junkyard would be cheaper.




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