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Internal HG leak all 4 cyl? No symptoms?


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54 replies to this topic

#26 Mosaic68

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 07:16 AM

HEY - is this vehicle still qualified for Subaru's extended head gasket replacement campaign - that's up to 100,000 miles on some 2000-2002 EJ25's...sounds like his may be???

Just for giggles you might want to check the backside of your engine assembly. The external leaks like your 2001 have are very obvious but do not necessarily cause puddles on the ground. They actually leak very slow at the rear of the engine and run down the back of the engine. It can run down the engine, motor mounts, cross member and burn off before really hitting the ground.

My guess is the old stuff is ignition related and the newest stuff is a different problem - loss of coolant was an external leak that was slow and went unnoticed until the coolant level dropped too much. hard to say over the internet without seeing anything, but based on EJ's and 2001...and what i'm reading i think that's the most likely scenario .

Your 2001 is a candidate for the Subaru coolant additive, it should have had the coolant additive added to it (that is for 2000 - 2002 EJ25's, not earlier ones).


As far as I understand it's for external leaks ONLY. I'll get with the mechanic today and have him double check...

#27 Mosaic68

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 07:19 AM

Actually its any modern engine, overheating can go so terribly wrong so very fast. Learn to scan the dash board regularly, thats what the temp gauge is for.

nipper


Me being the witness, as I said, it was only a block. Wife was driving it the previous week - as its her car. Wouldn't it go wrong over a couple of days? Say, if there are any air pockets in the water jacket?

Would like to know why Subies don't have a reservoir sensor...

#28 Mosaic68

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 07:23 AM

Excellent info so far, thanks. This is kind of what these forums are best at: helping an enthusiast make the best of an odd circumstance. Most of us will never need to change an engine, so those who do usually have to figure it out as they go, no previous experience. It'd be a bummer to find out a month from now he could've spent a little more and gotten a much better engine, had he only known.

Is there a front tranny seal that might be wise to spend a couple bucks and a few minutes changing? How about an inner CV boot, do these fail within 100k? Are they significantly easier to change with the engine out? If so he should take a close look at their condition. Where would be a good place to price out a complete set of coolant hoses front and back?


Excellent ideas all.

#29 MilesFox

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 07:36 AM

could you have an INTAKE GASKET leak?

#30 grossgary

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 11:53 AM

Me being the witness, as I said, it was only a block. Wife was driving it the previous week - as its her car. Wouldn't it go wrong over a couple of days?

if this is the case then you need to make absolutely sure that it's not a leak somewhere. and like Miles said have the mechanic check the intake gaskets, particularly if the one side was replaced before.

if you do end up doing the head gaskets and they're pulling the engine then you'll want:

clutch replaced including both retaining clips, throw out bearing, pilot bearing, pressure plate and clutch. all of that should come in a clutch kit except possibly the retaining clips.

for an automatic you'd replace the front torque converter seal. i always replace the ring-seal around the shaft as well but that's not necessary on this vehicle. be very careful and make sure the mechanic knows how to seat a Subaru torque converter seal, they are a bit tricky and are broken sometimes by people that don't know how to get the last 1/4" seated.

#31 Gloyale

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 01:41 PM

could you have an INTAKE GASKET leak?


EJs don't have coolant flowing through the intake. They use a seperate coolant crossover that bolts onto the top of the block. Intake gasket leak on a EJ would just cause high idle and/or stumbling and dying.

#32 Mosaic68

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 06:46 PM

if this is the case then you need to make absolutely sure that it's not a leak somewhere. and like Miles said have the mechanic check the intake gaskets, particularly if the one side was replaced before.

if you do end up doing the head gaskets and they're pulling the engine then you'll want:

clutch replaced including both retaining clips, throw out bearing, pilot bearing, pressure plate and clutch. all of that should come in a clutch kit except possibly the retaining clips.

for an automatic you'd replace the front torque converter seal. i always replace the ring-seal around the shaft as well but that's not necessary on this vehicle. be very careful and make sure the mechanic knows how to seat a Subaru torque converter seal, they are a bit tricky and are broken sometimes by people that don't know how to get the last 1/4" seated.



OK. So with, I think he called it a 'relative compression check', they believe the short block to be OK.

We're getting both HG's replaced, milling the heads flat.

As the motor is removed, we're replacing water pump, front and rear seals, Timing belt, plugs, radiator flush, new set of coolant hoses... for $2900.

Asked about the torque converter seal, manager is looking into it - asked them if they new how to install, they're getting back to me.

Finish time of Friday evening, 3 yr/36,000mi warranty.

Not surprised if you guys are going to tell me this is high... not feeling like I have many options here in G.R. MI. As far as doing all the components, like water pump, etc, I really don't have the facilities to do this stuff myself, and since the motor is removed, why not.

#33 nipper

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 06:51 PM

OK. So with, I think he called it a 'relative compression check', they believe the short block to be OK.

We're getting both HG's replaced, milling the heads flat.

As the motor is removed, we're replacing water pump, front and rear seals, Timing belt, plugs, radiator flush, new set of coolant hoses... for $2900.

Asked about the torque converter seal, manager is looking into it - asked them if they new how to install, they're getting back to me.

Finish time of Friday evening, 3 yr/36,000mi warranty.

Not surprised if you guys are going to tell me this is high... not feeling like I have many options here in G.R. MI. As far as doing all the components, like water pump, etc, I really don't have the facilities to do this stuff myself, and since the motor is removed, why not.


How did we go from low cpompression all four cylinders, then possible hydraulic lock with a bent connecting rod, to headgaskets?

:confused:

nipper

#34 Mosaic68

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 07:07 PM

How did we go from low cpompression all four cylinders, then possible hydraulic lock with a bent connecting rod, to headgaskets?

:confused:

nipper


Possible hydraulic lock was from a friend who is a lift truck maintenance manager, and as scott stated, his 'guess' can be thrown out.

Doesn't an internal HG leak cause low compression?

As far as the thread goes, I don't think we ever left the idea out that it was a Headgasket, did we?

#35 nipper

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 07:09 PM

Possible hydraulic lock was from a friend who is a lift truck maintenance manager, and as scott stated, his 'guess' can be thrown out.

Doesn't an internal HG leak cause low compression?

As far as the thread goes, I don't think we ever left the idea out that it was a Headgasket, did we?


Its the low conpression on all four cylinders that is the weird part of this.

Back to a HG issue, its usually just one cylinder.

Personally I wouldnt trust this engine or block with the information at hand to be repaired. Maybe if it was in front of me, I would have a different opinion.


nipper

#36 Mosaic68

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 07:14 PM

Its the low conpression on all four cylinders that is the weird part of this.

Back to a HG issue, its usually just one cylinder.

Personally I wouldnt trust this engine or block with the information at hand to be repaired. Maybe if it was in front of me, I would have a different opinion.


nipper


Well, according to the dealer and my indi, IHG leaks on all four cylinders is NOT uncommon with subies that have been overheated...

If something is wrong with the internals, we have 36,000 mi for it show.

#37 nipper

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 07:17 PM

Well, according to the dealer and my indi, IHG leaks on all four cylinders is NOT uncommon with subies that have been overheated...

If something is wrong with the internals, we have 36,000 mi for it show.


Thats just the top end.

Make sure that the engine gets fresh oil too. I am going to disagree with the dealer, as there have been many over heats on this board, and no multiple cylinder reduced compression.


good luck, you may need it. Keep proper records of everything, including converstaions and who said what when.

#38 Gloyale

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:00 PM

Sounds to me like a slipped timing belt. Causing valves to be open during the compression stroke, hence low compression values. That's the ONLY case I've ever seen low compression on every cylinder in anything. I really would have an independant at least take off the timing covers and verify valve timing first.

#39 nipper

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:04 PM

Sounds to me like a slipped timing belt. Causing valves to be open during the compression stroke, hence low compression values. That's the ONLY case I've ever seen low compression on every cylinder in anything. I really would have an independant at least take off the timing covers and verify valve timing first.


Gloyale, about something really bad, like valves hit pistons.


nipper

#40 Gloyale

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:13 PM

Gloyale, about something really bad, like valves hit pistons.


nipper


Not always. Remember he says the car still runs. So perhaps it is a 1 or 2 tooth slip at the crankpulley.

#41 nipper

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:15 PM

Not always. Remember he says the car still runs. So perhaps it is a 1 or 2 tooth slip at the crankpulley.


I sort of lost track that it is still running. It should be running very poorly then.

nipper

#42 Mosaic68

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:16 PM

I sort of lost track that it is still running. It should be running very poorly then.

nipper


It actually runs pretty well. I mean that in terms of how it sounds. I can't speak to power since I haven't driven it myself.

#43 nipper

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:19 PM

It actually runs pretty well. I mean that in terms of how it sounds. I can't speak to power since I haven't driven it myself.


then nothing makes any sense at all.

I am totally confused, as nothing is following any logic or making any sense.
Take the car to a sompletly difernt shop and get another opinion. Tell them nothing about the other shops opinions, just tell them the symptons.


nipper

#44 Mosaic68

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:45 PM

then nothing makes any sense at all.

I am totally confused, as nothing is following any logic or making any sense.
Take the car to a sompletly difernt shop and get another opinion. Tell them nothing about the other shops opinions, just tell them the symptons.


nipper

Since explainations were through a friend and I was freaked out when explaining them here are the symptoms:

Before any symptoms, radiator run dry, engine temp gauge pegged for ~1 block.

1. On startup, rough idle for ~15s and causes #3 cel misfire - the 15s has grown over last 2 weeks was intermittent, isn't anymore and is getting progressively worse.

2. Car runs fine otherwise - I cannot speak to power or response, though little I've ridden/driven doesn't seem to dog.

3. Eventually, w/in or less than 1 week the cel blinks.

4. Coolant reservoir has chunks of black soot in it.

from the shop(s):

I. first Indi mechanic: Both plugs and wires have been replaced and injector cleaner used to no avail. I'm guessing he found coolant in the cylinder by removing spark plug? Can't speak to it, just know he emptied all tricks to fix #3 misfire cel over a day and half.

I. dealer: compression test shows likely IHG leak on all four cylinders

II. Indi 2: relative compression test shows there is most likely integrity in rings and pistons (no holes and no sprung rings - unless they either all have holes or all have sprung rings), also based on how it runs there are no strange noises, slapping, diesel type noises or other leading him think there are any troubles with engine internals. As I witnessed, it runs smooth. We'll see when they open the engine up.

I cannot speak to online forums experience at not hearing of all four having IHG failures, myself guessing it's not a frequent result but probably happens given a possibly uneducated woman and her daft idiot husband. Both Dealer and Indi were not surprised, and neither was a manager from this place: http://www.subaruguys.com/ This could be wrong, we'll know in the next day or two.

#45 nipper

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:49 PM

Since explainations were through a friend and I was freaked out when explaining them here are the symptoms:

Before any symptoms, radiator run dry, engine temp gauge pegged for ~1 block.

1. On startup, rough idle for ~15s and causes #3 cel misfire - the 15s has grown over last 2 weeks was intermittent, isn't anymore and is getting progressively worse.

2. Car runs fine otherwise - I cannot speak to power or response, though little I've ridden/driven doesn't seem to dog.

3. Eventually, w/in or less than 1 week the cel blinks.

4. Coolant reservoir has chunks of black soot in it.

from the shop(s):

I. first Indi mechanic: Both plugs and wires have been replaced and injector cleaner used to no avail. I'm guessing he found coolant in the cylinder by removing spark plug? Can't speak to it, just know he emptied all tricks to fix #3 misfire cel over a day and half.

I. dealer: compression test shows likely IHG leak on all four cylinders

II. Indi 2: relative compression test shows there is most likely integrity in rings and pistons (no holes and no sprung rings - unless they either all have holes or all have sprung rings), also based on how it runs there are no strange noises, slapping, diesel type noises or other leading him think there are any troubles with engine internals. As I witnessed, it runs smooth. We'll see when they open the engine up.

I


Did they do a wet and dry test on the compression? Does anyone per chance have the numbers?


nipper

#46 nipper

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:50 PM

given a possibly uneducated woman and her daft idiot husband.


:lol::lol::lol:
:clap:

nipper

#47 grossgary

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:51 PM

that's a large job (and chunk of money) to throw at an engine that doesn't seem to exhibit head gasket problems. hopefully...whatever it is, gets rectified with the head gasket job, but what i am almost sure of is that the head gaskets are not going to solve your problem. all of this work may, but it's not the head gaskets causing it.

a CCR engine would not be much more than $2,900 and the entire thing would be warrantied by a trusted source. the savings and suspicious nature of this engine leads me to think that is a better route. i'm with nipper...bizarre information that is not making sense.

they're giving you a warranty on this? that's strange too. makes me wonder if they didn't see a very straight forward and simple solution....i know i wouldn't warranty an engine with such strange behavior without knowing for 100% sure what was going on.

just to clarify, it is seating the torque converter properly that is tricky with Subaru automatic tranmissions, not the torque converter seal as you mentioned.

#48 nipper

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:53 PM

they're giving you a warranty on this? that's strange too. makes me wonder if they didn't see a very straight forward and simple solution....i know i wouldn't warranty an engine with such strange behavior without knowing for 100% sure what was going on.


Thats why something doesnt add up (i'm not blaming the poster, just the repair shop).

I wouldnt warrenty an engine on just a top end rebuild either.

nipper

#49 Mosaic68

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 09:53 PM

Thats why something doesnt add up (i'm not blaming the poster, just the repair shop).

I wouldnt warrenty an engine on just a top end rebuild either.

nipper


I'll ask for more details.

My own reasoning for HG issues:

1. Running with empty radiator
2. Rough start
3. First indi visit trying everything to remove #3 misfire and getting nowhere - trusted mechanic, I believe him.
4. Carbon in reservoir

Why does one need more info? What else would cause the above. There's at least 1 internal head gasket leak, and with the engine being pegged, I think both heads should be leveled.

As far as more damage is concerned, we'll see. As I said, the engine runs fine. I'll demand to see the block with the heads off for verification, at least I'll be able to see the sleeves and piston faces, and if they don't clean the block faces off I can see where possible leaks were.

#50 Mosaic68

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 06:51 AM

:lol::lol::lol:
:clap:

nipper



problem?




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