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Engine Swap Question


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24 replies to this topic

#1 93ciShovel

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 07:18 PM

Hi, board. I'm new here and could use a couple of tips before I begin tearing into my 82 (5/82) GL 4X4 wagon.
The cam appears to be wiped out and after adjusting the valves several times, I looked into replacing the cam, which seems to be non-existent in the parts world. Not to mention the fact that I'd basically have to disassemble the entire engine just to do a cam swap on a car with a quarter million miles. This car is an EA 81 5-speed 4-by with A/C and manual steering.

I also have a donor car with a good engine. It's a carbureted 85 (8/85) automatic with 2WD, also air-conditioned, but with P/S.

What am I looking at, in terms of putting the 1.8 engine in the 82 car? Is it pretty straightforward? Does the bellhousing match up? does the flywheel from the EA81 match the crank flange of the 1.8?
Is it possible to use the intake (and related hoses) from the EA81 on the newer engine? Any other concerns? Exhaust manifold fitment? Etc.
Obviously, I'd like to keep the 4WD 5-speed.
What kind of power gains?

Thanks very much for any insight you might have.

On another note, do the seats interchange without any drilling? I'm not real crazy about brown plaid, if you know what I mean.

Brian
Yakima WA

#2 dave valiant

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 07:23 PM

I have no idea but you should try the search function and see if there's any help there.

#3 v8vega215

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 07:39 PM

If your new engine is a ea81 than you shouldent have any trouble but if your new engine is an ea82 than you will at least need the fly wheel off of an ea82, and you might be able to reuse your clutch plate. If your new engine is an ea81 than the power gaine from the newer cam will be noticable but there wont be any extra from the before condition from your old engine. If it is an ea82 than there may be a 10horse increase over your stock engine.

side note you may have to swap distributors because the 2wd disty is different from the 4wd disty

#4 MilesFox

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 07:55 PM

are you using the timing belt motor as a replacement(ea820

you mentioned that the trans was a 5spd 4x4. that year came with a 4spd, unless someone put a 5spd in there from an ea82

if so, use the ea82 flywheel.
if its the orginal trans, the ea81 flywheel can be drilled out to fit on the ea82 motor, but the timing marks will be incorrect

check this out for infohttp://www.warpthree.com/milesfox/subaru/service/SubaruService.htm

and here is from the topic on engine swaps
http://usmb.ultimate...light=ea82 swap

#5 93ciShovel

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 08:10 PM

I guess it is a 4-speed. I've never driven the car beyond the length of my driveway. There's so much shifter slop that what I thought was Fifth gear is really 3rd. Sorry about the confusion.

As far as the engines, I thought I made it clear, but here's what I have in the donor car: Not an EA81 (which is a 1.6L, right?), but a 1.8. The service sticker says engine family FFJ1.8V2HC1.
Yes, it's a timing belt OHC engine.

#6 MilesFox

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 08:26 PM

EA71 is the 1600 motor
ea81 is pishrods 1.8
ea82 is timing belt 1.8

you will have to find an ea82 flywheel, or drill out the holes to your existing flywheel

what year dit the spare motor come from

check out the glossary of terms on te top of the page i linked to above

#7 93ciShovel

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 08:34 PM

I've been reading that thread in the link you posted. Some good info there.
Strange, I dunno why I thought it was a 1.8 (the EA81)

The year of the donor engine is production date (of the car) 8/85, presumably making it an 86?
The car it's going into is from 5/82.

Now, I am under the impression that the EA81 flywheel will just have to have its bolt holes enlarged? Or do holes have to be drilled for re-positioning? If it's easy enough, Id rather just re-use the lighter flywheel and enlarge the holes and re-scribe the timing marks to match the EA82's flexplate marks.

#8 93ciShovel

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 08:42 PM

I don't understand why you wanteed me to look at the glossary.
The only think I don't know is what a hill-holder looks like, but that's not a problem yet. (I'm not a 4-by-guy)
I've been a mechanic on and off for 20 years, and have a pretty thorough knowledge of cars. I'm just trying to get an idea of what I'm looking at before I dive into it. I am used to American and German cars, some Japanese, but not particularly knowledgeable in Subaru. So don't worry about talking over my head. I'll follow close. :brolleye:

Brian

#9 MilesFox

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 08:45 PM

i posted the glossary, and it explaind different engine designations, tranny designations, and what they come in.

the hill holdse is on the inner frame below the master cylinder, and has a cable going to it from the clutch fork.

when the clutch is depressed, it holds back brake pressure to the rear wheels, intil you release the clutch

#10 93ciShovel

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 09:15 PM

Although this is really getting off track of the topic, the hill holder sounds like a good idea for climbing and steep hills (like the ones we have in downtown Seattle), for going from 0 mph to 3 mph, but does the hill holder have a way to disable itself at speed? In other words, do the rear brakes get applied while you are shifting, say, from second to third?

I know about line locks and trans brakes, but I've never heard of this method.

#11 MilesFox

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 09:22 PM

when you press the clutch thecable activates a valve when the clutch is in. the brake pressure applied will be how much you press the pedal. it simply holds the pressure back while the clutch is in. once you let off the clutch, it releases the pressure.
but an improperly adjusted hill holder will hang up the rear brake a little

it wont apply the rear brake when shifting, unless you hit the brake at the same time!

#12 93ciShovel

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 09:30 PM

What stops it from hanging the brakes when you are shifting?
From what I gathered in what you told me, the rear brakes are slightly applied depending on the amount of clutch pedal travel. Now, if that is the case in neutral, and presumably going into first gear, then what prevents it from dragging the brakes while the car is in motion?

#13 bratsrus1

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Posted 16 December 2003 - 11:38 PM

Hey Brian This is Jerry,i see that you are from Yakima well i am from Selah. Email me with your phone # and we can shoot the well you know what i mean. My email is bratsrus@elltel.net. Thanks Jerry

#14 MilesFox

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 12:17 AM

the brakes are applied depending on how hard you press the brake pedal with the cluch pressed

pressing the clutch will pull the hill holder cable this closing a valve. when you hit the brake, the valve acts like a one way valve. it allows the brake pressure to go to the back wheels. how much pressure applied is how much you press the brake pedal

when you release the clutch, the valve releases the pressure

when pressing the clutch while driving, the hill holder does not interfere with braking, for the simple matter you are not hitting the brake pedal at the same time

when pulling the motor, you can leave it hooked iup the cable will go over the motor and behind the manifold. it can be held out of the way when you disconnect all the wires and hoses fom the motor, and you can pull the motor out withthe hill holder still connected.

you will want to put the new motor in with the clutch. adjust the clutch cable before you adjust the hill holder.

the hill holder can be adjusted bt hand if the nut is not rusted

with the ea82 motor, i suggest using the ea82 battery cables, and relocating the battery onto the other side, and relocate the coil, just run longer wires along the firewall from the original location.

but you will have to cut out the jack carrier.

anyway that is how i did mine

#15 93ciShovel

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 04:11 AM

I think I do, anyway. Even if I don't, now it seems to make sense to me now. It's dependent on both pedals being pressed, and only releases the brake pressure when the clutch is released.
Genius.
Really. That's a great idea. It is a bit like a line lock, after all.
Wish I'd thought of that.:santa:
I don't know why I didn't get it before.

Thanks for all the help here.
Since you guys have been so helpful, I'm gonna document this engine swap for you, if you want it. I just ran over to my ex's house and borrowed her Sony 3.2 Megapixel camera. Think I'll start the swap tomorrow.

Actually, there's not a whole lot to document, except the flywheel modification and maybe the jack mount (boy, I'm sure gonna miss that!)

Is my taking pictures just a waste of time or would you have a use for it?

Brian

#16 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 04:24 AM

Very useful to take pictures. The swap your doing isn't terribly common for the simple fact that most people with the older cars prefer the EA81 and it's lack of timing belts. But the EA82 is a great motor as well. Miles has a good idea of what needs to be done, as he has performed this swap - I've even seen his car in person which he drove to the West Coast from Indiana!!

Good luck on your swap - sounds like you should have no problem at all.

One thing - it's prefereable to use the EA82 flywheel if you can because this allows the use of the heavier duty clutch from an EA82 turbo car, or even one from an XT6, which apparently has the strongest PP of the lot.

The hill holder - just to give you some background - was invented back in the 50's by Studebaker. To my knowledge, Subaru has been the only company to pick up on the idea and use it in modern cars. They just recently brought back the hill holder functionality on their latest 2004 model line (I think some - not all of them), which went away for the most part after the switch to hydraulic clutches instead of cable operated.

GD

#17 TomRhere

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 05:30 AM

I also strongly recommend that you use the EA-82 flywheel.

You will have to replace the Timing Belts eventually, and having the right flywheel on the engine makes the job a whole lot easier.

If you do opt to use the EA-81 flywheel, take the auto flywheel, lay it ontop of the manual flywheel, align the mount flange bolt holes, bolt them together, then transfer all of the marks over to the manual flywheel.
One of the mounting bolt holes is spaced differently than the rest, so be sure to check for proper alignment there.

I truly wish the person that did this swap in my BRAT had done this, but he didn't. So I'm stuck with it for now.
The coil is in the stock location, and the wires going to the Disty have been lengthened.
The waterpump mounted fan, will sit very close to the radiator. I opted to remove it from mine, and I'm not running the A/C.

Welcome to the Board.........

#18 MilesFox

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 09:01 PM

YES pictures would be very useful. i am dping write ups and need pics. take all the pics that you can, i will put them on my website.

i have swapped both ea81 and ea82 into ea81 cars, and both with 5spds from 2wd to 4wd, and 2wd auto to 4wd 5spd d/r

TrashWagon5 has ea82 front suspension, motor, tranny, and reasr suspension, in an 83 wagon.

pictures of the motor out of the car and ea82's going in, this would be a great opportunity

take pics of the distributor clearance, take it out to install the motor, you will have to relocate the hill holder, though

i used the ea82 flywheel. but we put an ea82 behind an ea81 2wd 5spd, we drilled the holes out of the flywheel to be bigger to use ea82 bolts. the pattern is the same. did it on a drill press.

but the 4wd 4spd ea81's pressure plate will fit on the ea82 flywheel, use the 4spd clutch from the transmission

get shots of the crossmember from several angles when the motor is out....

#19 93ciShovel

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 11:35 PM

Thanks, guys

Well, I'm not all that concerned with using the heaviest duty clutch and pressure plateavailable, especially on a car with 100 hp, although I imagine the HD clutch would also mate to the EA81 flywheel.
But since I don't already have an EA82 flywheel (I have an EA82 flexplate), I'll be customizing the lighter EA81 flywheel and matching the markings on it to match those of the EA82 counterpart. Besides, as a rule, for smaller cars with minimal power, a lighter flywheel is better, as it allows the engine to rev quicker. In this project, budget IS a major factor. I'm looking into sinking as little money into this baby as possible. So, parts will be used, modified, borrowed, fabricated, or stolen, as required.;)

As for the layout of the engine, I am kind of old-school and used to prefer a timing chain. But any more, I don't mind overhead cams with a timing belt. Most cars aren't that hard to change. And as long as you do it every 60,000 miles, it'll be fine (assuming you know when it was last done). BTW, are these engines an interference design? (Can a valve hit a piston if the belt snaps?)
What I really DISLIKE about the EA81 is the amount of work required to change a cam. Granted, cams rarely go flat, but still. What if a guy wanted to upgrade his? Then he's screwed. Overhead cams are relatively easy.

Guess I have my work cut out for me with the photography bit. But no problem. Didn't get much done today, except a compression test of 3 out of 4 EA82 cylinders. Couldn't get a good seal on the cylinder closest to the driver (#3?) I'm using one of those "press-in" type compression testers and there are hoses in the way. Which I knew where my screw-in testers went. Anyway the 3 I tested all had 140-150 psi. Not bad. I'm trying to test-run the engine before I remove it. But I can't get fuel to the carb. I think the fuel screen is clogged. There is some NASTY NASTY fuel in that tank. Can't get the smell off my hand for nothin' I got ir running with some fresh fuel in the carb, but not long enough for what I wanted. You could smell the dust in the exhaust. I guess this car's been sitting for a long time.

Another concern I forsee will be the A/C. The AC and alternator are reversed on the 2 cars. Will I have to Keep the brackets from the EA81 and make them work with the EA82 engine?

#20 MilesFox

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Posted 17 December 2003 - 11:56 PM

the alt bracket from the ea81 will swap pber. you may need a different belt

#21 93ciShovel

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 10:20 AM

while I got back here with pics I promised of my engine swap.

Sorry about the delay. As it turned out, the engine I was going to swap had a bad cylinder. Fortunately I figured this out with a compression test before pulling it.

So I became determined to salvage the existing engine, if at all possible. I re-checked the valve adjustments, which were pretty close. Turns out the cam really wasn't wiped. The carburetor was just way out of whack. I did manage to adjust it so it runs, but it still needs to be rebuilt/replaced. It's very hard to start. Though, once it warms up, it runs okay and idles around 1000 rpm, but not much lower. Strangely, I was spraying ether (starting fluid) around the carb to try and find a vacuum leak, when the damn thing backfired and caused an engine fire. Luckily, I had a fire extinguisher not too far away. The heat from the fire apparently melted a vacuum leak shut and the car has run better since (although still not great). No major damage done at all, thank God.

Anyone ever rebuilt one of these carburetors? And would you recommend it to someone else?

I have rebuilt a bunch of Holleys and Motorcrafts, and a couple of Quadrajets successfully, but how bad are these babies?

Happy New Year all!

Brian Yakima

#22 JonOfScio

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 10:29 AM

as far as the distributor, you don't NEED to swap it out. The 2wd disty has a better curve to it anyway, some people go out to find them and swap these into their cars because they get better power from it.

and yeah... if it's EA81, it'll swap fine. You won't even need to take the PS from 85, unless you REALLY wanted to convert your 82 to work with PS.

Motorcrafts and holleys are EASY.

This one is a little funny, but if you opened it up you'd know immediately what is what and all that's going on.

#23 Meeky Moose

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 10:40 AM

i would say instead of messing with the stock carb, get a 32/36 weber and slap on there, you'll notice a difference in power as well.. i'm sure someone here on the board has a used one floating around..

#24 93ciShovel

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 12:04 PM

Anyone want to hook me up w/ a Weber? Sounds good to me.

Brian

#25 Dr. RX

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 12:45 PM

Brian, you need to get with Jerry (Bratsrus! board name), he lives in Selah. Also Pat (can't remember his board name) who lives in Moxee. Between those two, they should be able to fix you up with what you need and all the help you'll want. Here is a link to Jerry info on the board, http://usmb.ultimate...info&userid=109

Hope that helps.




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