porcupine73 Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Hi. Spotted this brake line leak on my '96 Legacy Brighton. It appears to be some rear section of line that runs what appears to be above the gas tank on the right side rear. The brake line sections in the rear appear very rusy and rotted. What's the best way to fix this for reliable long term service? Can you get OEM sections of brake line for this that are prebent with fittings? Or should I get line at the parts store and do that double flaring thing on it? Any help/advice/links are appreciated. I'm sure this is covered somewhere on this board already. What the heck is this thing? The rear brake lines run through it. Lines look fine where they come in under the rear seat inside the cabin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwoodsboy Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Ah, my rustbelt brother.... my 95 did the exact same thing. Feel your pain. It is WAY too much of a PITA to snake new lines up through all the same places (by the tank) I put fittings on the "good" section of lines that sit under the rear seat... and poked them down through the same rubber fitting. Then run 'em over to the rear calipers! EDIT: I dont believe that this is anything more than a double connector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 18, 2008 Author Share Posted January 18, 2008 Excellent thanks for the info. Did you use normal compression type fittings, or the double flare? Do you remember what size brake line this is? I assume its metric.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 I do believe they are double flair. Best bet is to use the original start point and finish point, but route then differntely inbetween. If your going to do one, do them both. Get yourself some sort of thick stiff wire to shape the bends, then match them up on the tubing. Thats just a connector block. Good luck. Porc no pics of the brake line routing ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 You can get new OEM lines. But as said, PITA to replace. Always use a double flair on brake lines, when repairing old or making custom fit new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montana105 Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Would it also be worthwhile to coat the new lines with some kind of underbody spray or something to prevent future occurrences? Wrap then new lines in some heavy duty tape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 There is a new polymer coat out for brake lines. Buy the lines that look blackish, not the shiny ones. The shiny ones will be rotted within 2 years. ALWAYS DOUBLE FLARE BRAKE LINES. Line pressure can hit 2,000psi under emergency braking conditions. A compression union will blow off the line at this pressure, leaving you without brakes at the worst possible time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 I learned this repair trick from a mechanic who replaced a section of brake line on my old rusty '84 VW that I owned. Later, I had another section of brake line rust out, so I repaired the new leak myself using the same technique. Using a tube cutter, I cut out the bad piece of brake line on both ends where there was at least two inches of straight tubing remaining on both ends that was not rusted. I measured the length that I had removed, then took a small section of the old brake line with me to the auto parts store. There, I bought super heavy duty hydraulic hose that is not degraded by brake fluid. I bought the hose diameter that had an inside diameter just slightly larger then the brake line outside diameter. With the small section of old brake line that I brought with me, I made sure that the brake line would snugly slide inside the hydraulic hose. The hydraulic hose will look a lot like vacuum hose, but much thicker, and contain woven cord for strength. DON'T LET THE COUNTER GUY SELL YOU RUBBER VACUUM LINE, AS THAT PRODUCT IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO WITHSTAND HYDRAULIC PRESSURE, AND THE RUBBER HOSE WILL BE DEGRADED BY THE BRAKE FLUID. I bought a length of hose that was about 12 inches longer then the brake line section that I removed. The extra length allowed about 2 inches of hose to be slid on to each end of the original brake line tubing. Any extra length I cut off and threw away. Flaring the ends of the brake line before sliding inside the hose is a good idea, but not absolutely necessary. I secured the hose to the tubing with six hose clamps, using three hose clamps on each end. I wanted to make sure that the hose could not, and would not come loose, or leak. I used nylon cable ties to secure the new hose, so that it would not rub against anything on the car under body to create a chafe leak. I drove the car like this for a good five years with no problems. Finally, the car became such a rust bucket that I junked it. The hydraulic hose approach works so well, because you are not having to bend new metal brake line, that never seem to line up just right for connection. It is just so much easier working with a flexible hose. You will need to bleed out your brakes after using this, or any other brake line repair, but I am sure that you prolly already know that. Let us know how you fixed your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 Ok great! Thanks for the info. What's a good place to get the new brake piping and fittings? Will any auto parts store do that has the coated line? Anyone know what size this brake line is? How does this page look for instructions on double flaring (i've never done brake lines before): http://www.stu-offroad.com/suspension/flaretool/ft-1.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 Thanks for the info rooster2! I'll check out what I can find. Current plan is to get a good metric double flare kit (assuming it must be metric for a soob), figure out what size brake pipe the soob uses and get some of that, and some unions and other fittings. Plan to tap into the good brake line portion under the seat and run the new brake lines to the rear wheel cylinders (this is a brighton so has rear drums :/ ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Porc - the link to the instructions you posted look great. I do recommend you practice on a couple of pieces first tho!! (ie: buy an extra piece of line for practice purposes - it's cheap enough) I had never flared lines before either until this past summer when I had to replace some lines on my mom's car - practicing a couple of times is a MUST!!! the first one came out pretty bad. took 3-4 tries to really get the hang of it. Also, I got a cheap flaring kit (under $20) from the auto parts store - worked ok for me... Also, if you dont already have a set - get a set of the wrenches for doing brakes...makes life much easier. You may also want to have a "hot" wrench handy as well to help break loose any existing fittings without damaging things. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 There, I bought super heavy duty hydraulic hose that is not degraded by brake fluid. I bought the hose diameter that had an inside diameter just slightly larger then the brake line outside diameter. With the small section of old brake line that I brought with me, I made sure that the brake line would snugly slide inside the hydraulic hose. The hydraulic hose will look a lot like vacuum hose, but much thicker, and contain woven cord for strength. DON'T LET THE COUNTER GUY SELL YOU RUBBER VACUUM LINE, AS THAT PRODUCT IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO WITHSTAND HYDRAULIC PRESSURE, AND THE RUBBER HOSE WILL BE DEGRADED BY THE BRAKE FLUID. This suggestion is up there with using copper tubing and using compression fittings. All of these are worse than putting a common nail in the flare fitting to block the flow. At least with the nail you will have a high, hard pedal and 3 working brakes. With the other hack repairs, you will have a good pedal untill you actualy need it, when whoosh it will go to the floor. If you had gotten in an accident with your VW, and an accident investigation had been done, your mechanic's head would have been on the chopping block for that brake hose. Doing hack repairs on anything other than the brake and steering systems is fine by me, because it is you that will burn to death or be sitting on the side of the road on a dark and rainy night. Brakes and steering systems are there so you can avoid killing other people. It's inexcusable to do shoddy repairs on these systems. If you can't stop or can't turn, and you hit and kill someone else, you just took an innocent life because you were too lazy/cheap to fix the brakes right. The only acceptable brake repairs are with steel brake line, double flare or bubble flare fittings, or brake hose intended for automotive use with fittings already crimped onto the end. Hose clamps do not count as crimps. Get a flaring kit, bend the brake line by hand. Practice with some smaller pieces first. It takes a little skill to not kink the line when bending it. Oh, and use a countersink or the blade on the back of the tubing cutter to de-burr the inside of the cut tube. Your flares will suck if you don't. This is a job easily done at home, I live in the rust belt like you, so I end up doing this fairly often. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpm4x4 Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 I learned this repair trick from a mechanic who replaced a section of brake line on my old rusty '84 VW that I owned. Later, I had another section of brake line rust out, so I repaired the new leak myself using the same technique. Using a tube cutter, I cut out the bad piece of brake line on both ends where there was at least two inches of straight tubing remaining on both ends that was not rusted. I measured the length that I had removed, then took a small section of the old brake line with me to the auto parts store. There, I bought super heavy duty hydraulic hose that is not degraded by brake fluid. I bought the hose diameter that had an inside diameter just slightly larger then the brake line outside diameter. With the small section of old brake line that I brought with me, I made sure that the brake line would snugly slide inside the hydraulic hose. The hydraulic hose will look a lot like vacuum hose, but much thicker, and contain woven cord for strength. DON'T LET THE COUNTER GUY SELL YOU RUBBER VACUUM LINE, AS THAT PRODUCT IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO WITHSTAND HYDRAULIC PRESSURE, AND THE RUBBER HOSE WILL BE DEGRADED BY THE BRAKE FLUID. I bought a length of hose that was about 12 inches longer then the brake line section that I removed. The extra length allowed about 2 inches of hose to be slid on to each end of the original brake line tubing. Any extra length I cut off and threw away. Flaring the ends of the brake line before sliding inside the hose is a good idea, but not absolutely necessary. I secured the hose to the tubing with six hose clamps, using three hose clamps on each end. I wanted to make sure that the hose could not, and would not come loose, or leak. I used nylon cable ties to secure the new hose, so that it would not rub against anything on the car under body to create a chafe leak. I drove the car like this for a good five years with no problems. Finally, the car became such a rust bucket that I junked it. The hydraulic hose approach works so well, because you are not having to bend new metal brake line, that never seem to line up just right for connection. It is just so much easier working with a flexible hose. I really have a problem with this "style" of repair. It may work to get you home, but those hose clamps were never designed to hold that hose on at that pressure. If you get in an accident and someone is hurt, or killed, you will be glad you saved a few bucks on that repair to help with legal fees. I know I am new here, and don't want to start a war, but that was some very bad advice that was given to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 I really have a problem with this "style" of repair. It may work to get you home, but those hose clamps were never designed to hold that hose on at that pressure. If you get in an accident and someone is hurt, or killed, you will be glad you saved a few bucks on that repair to help with legal fees. I know I am new here, and don't want to start a war, but that was some very bad advice that was given to you. Did i read that right? Somone used a rubber high pressure hose with just hose clamps?!?!?! this will cause you to loose your house if you are ever in an accident that has an injury. At the very very least use clamps made for high pressure hydraulics. Just splice a metal brake line in there or a regular brake line. nipper 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bserk Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 I really hope and prey no one takes the rubber line and hose clamp repair seriously. Dangerous, illegal, and just plain stupid. If he seriously made this repair and it lasted as long as he says, I'd say he is one lucky man. And everyone who shares the road with him as well! I think Ive heard it all now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 Great thanks for all the info everyone! Two questions.... (1) does anyone know what the Subaru brake pipe internal diameter size is? like 4mm 4.5mm, etc. (2) Per that flaring article linked earlier, does anyone know if the Soob brake line fittings are the 'bubble flare' or 'double flare 45 deg'? Thanks so much!!!! I am feeling a lot better about being able to do this. I need to get the flaring kit, supplies etc....just what I needed another excuse to buy more tools! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 just what I needed another excuse to buy more tools! DO we ever really need an excuse to buy tools, except for the word "SALE" nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 Haha right on! Even 'sale' is optional if other excuses are available.... thanks for the tip about using the stiff wire to route the brake line path before bending the line. Good idea! I have a tubing bender, haven't bent much tube though..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Sears has seen a lot of my money last year nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 haha o man I hear you on the Sears thing. The last few years their right after thanksgiving sales have been pretty amazing. Like half the price of the best sears sale price I've ever seen on certain items. However their web site crashes from the load. I've ordered after the fact and explained I tried to order during the sale but the web site crashed (which it did), and then like two months later get a refund for differnece in the sale price. Exceleent!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Haha right on! Even 'sale' is optional if other excuses are available.... thanks for the tip about using the stiff wire to route the brake line path before bending the line. Good idea! I have a tubing bender, haven't bent much tube though..... an old wire clothes hanger works pretty well for the template... takes a little practice with the tubing bender, too - just so ya know... not sure on what the size the tube is, but should be the double flare - at least all the ends I have seen on our Subies were...if you can, take out a chunk of the bad line & take it in to the parts store with you (preferably with a fitting), you should be able to match it up just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 Excellent, just need to get some supplies. Notes to self.... OEM fitting to brake line hose is M10x1.0 (same as brake caliper banjo bolt) with a thread engagement of at least 8mm. OEM brake lines are approx. 4.86mm OD with the greenish coating. This means they are probably the 4.75mm od which is approx 3/16" od brake line which is very common. Not sure if the fittings use the what seem to be called ISO 37 deg. bubble flare, or the SAE 45 deg. double flare. Here's the mating surface of an old flex hose brake line: This site has some interesting info and possibly products of interest: http://www.fedhillusa.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 Interesting article on brake lines and corrosion at http://www.copper.org/applications/automotive/hydraulic_brake_tube.html What do you guys think of the products at http://www.fedhillusa.com Their three questions are...and my answer in green. 1. What size and how long is your brake line. 3/16"/4.75mm od 2. What kind of flares are on each end of line. 45 deg. SAE double flare 3. What kind of brake line nut is on each end. 10mmx1.0 SAE nut So based on that info I need a double flare tool kit and supplies: The tube nuts will all be either 10mm x 1.0 male fully threaded steel nut, 16mm overall. SAE (double) flare. standard Asian style nut. or the longer: 10mm x 1.0 male fully threaded steel nut, 21mm overall. SAE (double) flare. standard Asian, long style nut. and then where I tap into the existing lines under the seat will be: 10mm x 1.0, SAE (double) flare, Asian, metric, female steel union, 26mm overall. Use with 10mmx1.0 male SAE nut and 3/16"/4.7mm SAE (double) flared brake line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 NO COPPER BRAKELINES! (ok no nickle cooper brakelines). Copper can work harden with time (thats how you snap copper wire by beding it repeatedly). If your in an accident, and they see copper, you wil be at fault. Granted they are copper alloy, but they are not aproved for your car (original equipment). You can prove otherwise, but its not worth the headaches. Copper break lines even alloys have differnt charicteristics then steel ones. http://www.dimebank.com/BrakePlumbing.html They may be easier to work with, but they tend to be more expensive, and the longevity is still an unknown. Granted Audi And volvo use copper alloy, but they have been aproved to use it on thier brake lines. Alco copper alloy needs to be fastened down at about every 5 inches to keep it from vibrating. Use Steel, its not like its a job you have to do every day, so it do it right the first time . nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 23, 2008 Author Share Posted January 23, 2008 Thanks nipper, that c/kunifer was tempting but is too risky. I want something that will last. It seems steel line even aluminum or copper coated people say in super salt areas only lasts maybe 3-4 years? How about stainless steel brake line? I see summit has it: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM-220236 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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