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Permatex Ultra-Gray


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35 replies to this topic

#1 lostinthe202

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 08:45 AM

'96 OBW 2.2 166k

Use or don't use?

I suppose this is a pretty good example of too much information being a bad thing.

For the last few weeks I've been reading like crazy thread after thread about timing belt replacement (among lots of other things) and found out the handy info about the oil pump o-ring and the back plate screws loosening up. So this weekend I finally had all the parts, info and time to tackle the job. I got as far as disassembly and removal of the oil and water pumps. I read in some post or another about using permatex ultra-gray on the oil pump when putting it back on, which is what I did. I quit for the day to let the stuff dry and this morning as I'm getting ready to get back out there I happened to read some post about how any gasket maker you use on an oil related part has to be anaerobic. Ultra-Gray says it's low odor (which it is for silicone) but does this mean I should pull the pump back off and get some different stuff lest my o2 sensor get a snoot full?

As always, thanks!!

Will-

#2 grossgary

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 09:50 AM

you'll probably be fine but anaerobic is the way to go really. that's what i always use. i saw that O2 comment as well, that's the first i've ever heard of that.

#3 porcupine73

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 12:21 PM

Permatex ultra grey works fine, at least it has for me. It is on Subaru's list of adhesives as alternative to some of the threebond sealants they use. Anaerobic is nice stuff and should work very well; I think Subaru lists the rtv's because they might be a little easier/more forgiving in their use?

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I think some automakers say 'no rtv/silicone/etc/etc' because they are paranoid about emissions warranty. Maybe then if they can spot anything like that as having been used they can deny having to pay for o2 sensor replacement, etc. I think 99obw posted before about what happens when silicone gets into the intake, that it basically forms glass on the tip of the o2 sensor and then it no workie anymore?

#4 Gloyale

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 12:34 PM

RTV is good for alot of stuff. But for the Oil Pump on EJ's it's not the right stuff.

I have personally found chunks of RTV circulating all throughout an EJ22. Recently, the owner had replaced the oil pump and used Grey RTV. It had been ticking terribly after the pump replacement. We discovered chunks of RTV in the oil filter. The RTV had splooged into the oil passages, and then torn away and gotten into everything.

We had to pull the heads, and remove all 16 HLA's to clean and reprime them. Several had tiny RTV chunks in them. We removed every oil passage plug in the block and cranked the engine to clear the passages. Without spliting the case, we really don't know if there is anything stuck in the main and rod bearings.

Bottom line, RTV for the Oil pump is bad....MMKAY... Use Anearobic. RTV splooges tear easily. Anearobic hardens and is way less likely to dislodge chunks. Espescially in the oil pump where there is oil rushing through the passsgaes.

I use SOA Threebond, Toyota bond, or the Permatex anearobics.

Place I DO use RTV are Oil Pan gaskets, Cam Towers, Thermostat housings(EA motors) and Oil Filler tube seal.

#5 porcupine73

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 12:46 PM

How did the pieces of rtv get past the oil filter? Maybe the oil filter was left on too long and its bypass valve opened or something.

#6 Gloyale

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 01:06 PM

How did the pieces of rtv get past the oil filter? Maybe the oil filter was left on too long and its bypass valve opened or something.


I asked myself this too.

IDK. I figured the bypass valve like you said.

The filters flow is resticted after a pretty short time. Doesn't take much before the bypass valve opens. This prevents the bearings from starving for oil.....but....it provides them with unfiltered oil, so it's a catch 22.

This is the #1 reason to change you're oil more often. Filters clog and then you are reciculating unfilered oil. *You could probably change just the filter for every 3 or 4 oil changes. Clean, well filtered OLD oil is way better than gritty oil of any age.







* not actually recommending this

Change you're oil and filter regularly.

#7 Gloyale

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 01:08 PM

Posted Image


Where did this come from?

#8 lostinthe202

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 01:11 PM

Hmm... it's tempting to think that whomever put the Ultra-gray on the engine Gloyale is referring to put on too much and had a oil filter issues as Proc suggests. But, I suppose it's one of those things that would suck to find out the hard way. I haven't put oil in the engine so all this really means is that I have to wait another 24 hours before I can put oil in, thus having to wait until next weekend to finish:mad: something I was trying to avoid.

ah well, thems the breaks!

Can I get this product at most auto parts chains?

thanks!

Will-

#9 porcupine73

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 01:13 PM

Hi. Yes the permatex ultra-grey pretty much any parts store has it, napa, pepboys, carquest, etc.

I think I might try anaerobic next time since it does seem safer and a better choice.

That sealants chart is from a www.endwrench.com article.

The oil filter might also have been defective allowing flow to bypass the filter all the time. Some of the cheapo oil filters bypass setup leaves a bit to be desired.

Another thing I have noticed is a lot of aftermarket oil filters the bypass opens at maybe 8-12psid, whereas on the Subaru OEM filter it is like 22psid.

#10 lostinthe202

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 01:15 PM

Hi. Yes the permatex ultra-grey pretty much any parts store has it, napa, pepboys, carquest, etc.



Sorry should've clarified, Ultra-Gray is what I put on, I'm asking after the availability of the anaerobic stuff.

Thanks

Will-

#11 porcupine73

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 01:18 PM

hehe oh sorry about that. I bought some anaerobic at napa before, but haven't used it yet. The permatex web site has all their product info, not sure how many different types of anaerobics they make?

#12 porcupine73

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 01:25 PM

Here's the permatex ones anyway.....
http://www.permatex....sket_makers.htm

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Permatex® Anaerobic Flange Sealant
Flexible, gasketing material for use on rigid machined flanges with less than .015" gap. OEM approved – use where OE’s specify “anaerobic” gasket (cures in the absence of air). Withstands temperatures to 300°F (149°C). Eliminates preformed, pre-cut, paper, rubber and cork gaskets. Flexes with flanges that move in service.

Suggested Applications: Water pumps, thermostat housings, transmission pans, transmission case covers, transaxle casings, engine cases, timing covers, and o-ring replacement
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Permatex® Anaerobic Gasket Maker

OEM specified. Noncorrosive gasketing material designed primarily for use on aluminum, iron, and steel flanged mating surfaces. Ideal for on-the-spot and emergency repairs, or when a conventional gasket is unavailable. Fills gaps up to .015" and cures to a solvent-resistant seal that will not tear or decay during service. Parts disassemble easily even after extended service and old gasket material can be removed in minutes with a simple putty knife.

Suggested Applications: Water pumps, thermostat housings, transmission pans, transmission case covers, transaxle casings, o-ring replacement
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Permatex® High Temperature Anaerobic Flange Sealant

A high temperature sealant specially engineered for making or dressing gaskets in rigid assemblies. Able to withstand temperatures to 400°F (204°C), fills gaps up to 0.020” (primed) and permits clamping loads to be maintained for strong, leakproof assemblies.

Suggested Applications: Water pumps, thermostat housings, transmission pans, transmission case covers, transaxle casings, timing covers, and o-ring replacement
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==========================================================

#13 porcupine73

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 01:29 PM

What do you guys think of this stuff? It sounds interesting:

Permatex® Hylomar® Universal Blue Racing Formula Gasket Dressing & Flange Sealant

This non-chlorinated gasketing and sealing compound has been specially formulated to be non-setting and non-hardening at elevated temperatures. It withstands rapid changes in temperature and remains flexible and tacky even at high temperatures, allowing repeated disassembly and reassembly in high performance applications. This no-run formula seals surface imperfections on machined flanges and is vibration resistant. Temperature range of -60°F to +500°F (-50°C to +260°C); resists engine fluids, including water, coolant, gasoline, lubricating oils, kerosene and some refrigerants. Also possesses dust and moisture proofing properties.

Suggested Applications: Thermostat housings, differential coverings, hydraulic drives and motors, gearbox assemblies, intake manifold assemblies, oil, fuel and water pump housings and seals, fuel injectors and fuel pumps, transmission and torque converter seals

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#14 EvilDead

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 02:32 PM

^^^ Looks like awesome stuff!

#15 aircraft engineer

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 02:50 PM

I hope you loctited the oil pump screws as well before reassembly. Red or blue should work well for that app

the permatex look pretty good - if i can just find it

http://www.permatex....otive/85249.pdf

it's available locally and costs about $12 per tube 1.2 oz

#16 porcupine73

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 09:32 PM

Sounds good! The thing I'm not sure about that Hylomar for say oil pump case sealing anyway is that application is not exactly a remove and reinstall frequently type application, so I'd be more tempted to go with the good 'ol anaerobic sealant on that. Wow $12 for an ounce..... :lol: On the oil pump screws I usually use the loctite green/wicking type.

#17 mbshop

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 11:52 PM

hylomar is the best way to go. use very little. i've done engines were i've seen silicone plug passages up. that stuff will stretch into a long thin thread and get through almost anything until it reaches something vital.

george

#18 lostinthe202

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 06:14 AM

Yeah, I think the instructions on the Ultra-Gray stuff are kind of asking for trouble. It says to use a 1/16 to 1/4 bead. I can only imagine how much would squeeze out on a 1/4 inch bead!

Thanks for the input.

Will-

#19 Gloyale

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 11:46 AM

Subaru Recommends Anaerobic. Period.

Any sealant with a tendancy to rip away after the edges cure is bad news in an oil pump.

ToyataBond anaerobic works very well, and looks to be excactly like the original sealant once cured. Hard cured and well stuck. Not likely to flake or tear away. My local dealership ussually has a tube to sell. For ome reaon the Subaru Tri-Bond has to be ordered, o I use the Toyota.

I've used the Permatex anaerobic on other parts(tranmission/front diff flange)The stuff in the blue tube. It's actually bright clear red, looks like melted twizzler :lol:. It seems to work OK, but I won't use it on block halves or oil pumps.

$15 tube of Tri-bond or ToyotaBond will do 3 block halves, or like 6 or 7 Oil pumps. So it's not as expensive a the Permatex in the tiny tube.

#20 porcupine73

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 12:17 PM

Subaru Recommends Anaerobic. Period.


The Subaru list says threebond 1215. Is that an anaerobic? I don't know how to tell. It says silicone and 'deoxime'; permatex ultra-grey says silicone and 'oxime'.

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#21 Gloyale

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 12:32 PM

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Notice the part where it say's "cures with exposure to moisture from the air.

That right there means it's NOT ANAEROBIC

Not too much moisture or air inside the oilpump passages. Especially if one were to finish the job and fire it up without proper curing time. Once coated in oil, it will never cure. Imagining the results(and having seen them), reminds me of a silicon based egg-drop soup.

Why would you not listen to Fuji's recommendation here????

#22 2X2KOB

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 12:36 PM

I hope you loctited the oil pump screws as well before reassembly. Red or blue should work well for that app

the permatex look pretty good - if i can just find it

http://www.permatex....otive/85249.pdf

it's available locally and costs about $12 per tube 1.2 oz


When using loctite on threaded fasteners, do you have to make sure that the fasteners and holes are cleaned of all oil residue before applying the loctite?

#23 porcupine73

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 12:51 PM

Notice the part where it say's "cures with exposure to moisture from the air.

That right there means it's NOT ANAEROBIC

Not too much moisture or air inside the oilpump passages. Especially if one were to finish the job and fire it up without proper curing time. Once coated in oil, it will never cure. Imagining the results(and having seen them), reminds me of a silicon based egg-drop soup.

Why would you not listen to Fuji's recommendation here????


I know permatex ultra grey is not anaerobic. I'm asking about the threebond 1215 which Subaru specifies for this application - is threebond 1215 anaerobic. I posted the permatex ultragrey info for comparison.

#24 Skip

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 01:09 PM

When using loctite on threaded fasteners, do you have to make sure that the fasteners and holes are cleaned of all oil residue before applying the loctite?


affirmative, Sir

#25 2X2KOB

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 04:37 PM

Thanks much!

(and I apologize for thread-jacking)




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