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Permatex Ultra-Gray


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35 replies to this topic

#26 Skip

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 04:54 PM

no hijack KOB

the discussion centered on the entire operation.

What you said is applicable to use of any sealant ect.

#27 porcupine73

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 11:00 PM

Hi, here's some typical loctite directions. These happen to be for Loctite 242 (blue/medium strength), which does happen to be an anaerobic cure.

Directions for use/For Assembly
1. For best results, clean all surfaces (external and internal) with a LOCTITE® cleaning solvent and allow to dry.
2. If the material is an inactive metal or the cure speed is too slow, spray all threads with Activator 7471™ or 7649™ and allow to dry.
3. Shake the product thoroughly before use.
4. To prevent the product from clogging in the nozzle, do not allow the tip to touch metal surfaces during application.
5. For Thru Holes, apply several drops of the product onto the bolt at the nut engagement area.
6. For Blind Holes, apply several drops of the product downthe internal threads to the bottom of the hole.
7. For Sealing Applications, apply a 360° bead of productto the leading threads of the male fitting, leaving the firstthread free. Force the material into the threads tothouroughly fill the voids. For bigger threads and voids,
adjust product amount accordingly and apply a 360° beadof product on the female threads also.
8. Assemble and tighten as required.

#28 porcupine73

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 11:03 PM

The Subaru recommended sealant for the oil pump mating surface is Threebond 1215, which is not an anaerobic sealant. It is a 'solvent' type sealant. Subaru also lists Permatex ultra-grey #599 (and also 3M T-3 silicone) as 'equivalents'. I'm not saying anaerobic sealants won't work perfectly fine or isn't the better/safer choice, but if we're talking about what Subaru recommends, it is definitely not anaerobic.

Posted Image

Full Three Bond article 6 MB, has lots of interesting info about anaerobic sealants.

#29 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 11:27 PM

When using loctite on threaded fasteners, do you have to make sure that the fasteners and holes are cleaned of all oil residue before applying the loctite?


Not to in any way discount the Skipster, but "loctite" is a brand. You need to specify what TYPE of loctite you are talking about. Some types are more "forgiving" than others. Generally, yes you should always clean threads. But Loctite makes threaded pipe dope with teflon for instance (it's rather like the consistency of snot), and when you are talking about 3" threaded iron pipe the difference in "clean" and "CLEAN" is a pretty big one. I wouldn't bother with more than a wire wheel for example. I'm not going to hot tank it or use any solvents on such a joint - it's not going to help.

Our production guys have tried numerous methods to "seal" 6"+ pipe. They just can't. They have welded some connections in the past. They found after much trial and error that it's best to let it leak and the pipe will rust and seal itself from the inside.

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#30 2X2KOB

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 07:41 AM

Not to in any way discount the Skipster, but "loctite" is a brand. You need to specify what TYPE of loctite you are talking about.


Good point. The stuff I have been using is 'Loctite 271 Threadlocker Red High Strength'. I think I'm going to pick up some of the blue 242 or 243 though, just to have it around. I have an EJ (EJ252) timing belt job coming up pretty soon.

#31 lostinthe202

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 08:26 AM

Notice the part where it say's "cures with exposure to moisture from the air.


I dunno about that, seems the amount of moisture required is pretty small, and with the oil drained, I think there would be plenty of air behind the pump. Kinda like urethane glue (gorilla glue), coating both surfaces with water helps speed things up but it's not usually necessary. On the other hand, didn't I read someplace that combustion gases can get moisture into the motor oil by way of blow-by that the oil having a hydrophilic quality absorbs? If so then perhaps the RTV would be competing with the oil residue still in the area for the available moisture.

Especially if one were to finish the job and fire it up without proper curing time. Once coated in oil, it will never cure.


This on the other hand is def. asking for trouble. Another fault with the directions, saying that it, "is fully cured in 24 hrs" implies that you shouldn't submerse it in fluids after the initial 1 hr dry period, but it should perhaps be more clear.

#32 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 10:03 AM

Good point. The stuff I have been using is 'Loctite 271 Threadlocker Red High Strength'. I think I'm going to pick up some of the blue 242 or 243 though, just to have it around. I have an EJ (EJ252) timing belt job coming up pretty soon.


242 is what I mostly use.... but I use the 248 "Stick" version. Try that one as it's much easier to work with.

GD

#33 porcupine73

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 12:03 PM

I like the stick or gel styles too, they seem easier to work with and keep where you want it. When I replace an oil pump, I usually put a little of the loctite green where the screw heads meet the case; supposedly it wicks down in there.

#34 Gloyale

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 02:16 PM

The Subaru recommended sealant for the oil pump mating surface is Threebond 1215, which is not an anaerobic sealant. It is a 'solvent' type sealant. Subaru also lists Permatex ultra-grey #599 (and also 3M T-3 silicone) as 'equivalents'. I'm not saying anaerobic sealants won't work perfectly fine or isn't the better/safer choice, but if we're talking about what Subaru recommends, it is definitely not anaerobic.

Posted Image

Full Three Bond article 6 MB, has lots of interesting info about anaerobic sealants.


That is a chart from 1989. Here is the current chart.http://www.threebond...s/1200list.html

This is the current Threebond chart. It states 1215 to be a Non-solvent type, Deoxime reaction(i.e. anaerobic) reaction.

Note the permatex chart lists the "ultra grey 599" as an Oxime reaction.

It's not the same stuff. And I could not find any endorsement from subaru for the use of the Ultra grey for Three-bond 1215 applications.

I would be;) happy to be proved wrong though, Ultra Grey is 1/4 the price of Three-bond 1215

#35 porcupine73

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 05:06 PM

Hi. Wow threebond's web site has tons of info on there. I had never heard of threebond before working on Subaru's. Yes the ultra grey is quite a bit cheaper! I think threebond sells a lot of product in Japan.

The info from Subaru about the sealants is here, where threebond 1215 and permatex ultra grey and 3M T-3 silicone are listed: http://endwrench.com...MayEWInside.pdf

Threebond lists 1215 as a 'nonsolvent type silicone-based', not as an 'anaerobic type'. They do list some as anaerobic such as 1110B and 1130, but not 1215.

Posted Image

#36 ramuk

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 02:25 PM

It would seem to me that we can automatically rule out Permatex Anaerobic sealant because the temperature range is from -65F to 300F.

I would imagine the oil peak temperature to be a lot higher than 300F??

--

Addendum:

I did a google search and found that "normal" oil temperature maxes out at 240F.
However, "heavy" usage (racing, towing etc) can result in a sustained temperature of 290F.

So, it seems my argument is valid: Don't use permatex anaerobic sealant for the oil pump.

Edited by ramuk, 25 June 2010 - 03:31 PM.





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