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No spark


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24 replies to this topic

#1 aberti

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 01:31 PM

OK I'm about to give up... :(

96 Legacy 2.2 auto missing on # 1 & 2. No spark whatsoever...Swapped coils plugs, wires, cam sensor, crank sensor. Good compression 150+. Pulling my hair out on this one......Could the timing be off a bit? I forget when I last changed the timing belt, could it have slipped enough to throw off # 1 & #2 cyl spark?

Any input would be great!

#2 Gloyale

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 02:30 PM

OK I'm about to give up... :(

96 Legacy 2.2 auto missing on # 1 & 2. No spark whatsoever...Swapped coils plugs, wires, cam sensor, crank sensor. Good compression 150+. Pulling my hair out on this one......Could the timing be off a bit? I forget when I last changed the timing belt, could it have slipped enough to throw off # 1 & #2 cyl spark?

Any input would be great!


It's not the timing belt. Since you wapped coils, that' not it either. But IIRC, 1 and 2 fire as a pair, and the unused spark is "wasted". I am going to say you've got a broken or corroded wire, probably the one that signals 1+2 to fire.

#3 nipper

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 04:03 PM

Or a bad ecu.

nipper

#4 porcupine73

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 06:04 PM

Well, not sure if this helps but since many common things seem to be covered already (article from endwrench):

Legacy and Impreza Engines with No Injection Pulse #1 Cylinder
Built into the fuel injection control unit is logic that will shut off the #1 injector if the computer believes that it can no longer control the Idle Air
Control valve. Remember this while trying to diagnose a “hard” code for the
Idle Air Control Valve or a dead miss in number one cylinder due to no injection at idle.

A problem in the Idle Air Control valve circuit can be responsible. (Component testing shows that it is usually not the valve itself.) Another unusual computer response is if the computer is deprived of its “back up power supply.” If deprived of this power, some computers will generate a false code for the Idle Air Control valve and kill the injector for cylinder #1. The pin location of this power supply can be found in the Control Unit Module I/O Signal pages of the appropriate service manual.
1 End Wrench The insider info.

#5 OB99W

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 08:10 PM

[...]96 Legacy 2.2 auto missing on # 1 & 2. No spark whatsoever[...]

How did you determine that there is no spark to those cylinders?

If you're absolutely certain that the misfire is due to lack of spark, then beside the things you already replaced (and the ECU which Nipper mentioned) there's also the igniter and wiring/connections to consider.

See http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/DirectIgnition.pdf
There are errors in the "DirectIgnition.pdf" info. In the "Ignition Coil Testing" section, the terminal numbers listed are reversed between the primary and secondary; however, the diagram is labeled correctly.

#6 Gloyale

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 11:31 AM

Well, not sure if this helps but since many common things seem to be covered already (article from endwrench):

Legacy and Impreza Engines with No Injection Pulse #1 Cylinder
Built into the fuel injection control unit is logic that will shut off the #1 injector if the computer believes that it can no longer control the Idle Air
Control valve. Remember this while trying to diagnose a “hard” code for the
Idle Air Control Valve or a dead miss in number one cylinder due to no injection at idle.

A problem in the Idle Air Control valve circuit can be responsible. (Component testing shows that it is usually not the valve itself.) Another unusual computer response is if the computer is deprived of its “back up power supply.” If deprived of this power, some computers will generate a false code for the Idle Air Control valve and kill the injector for cylinder #1. The pin location of this power supply can be found in the Control Unit Module I/O Signal pages of the appropriate service manual.
1 End Wrench The insider info.


He said no spark, not no fuel. Plus the injectors are not tied in pairs on EJs. But the coils are. 1+2 spark toghether, so if they are both NOT sparking, it i reasonable to assume the trouble is with the coil(ruled out by replacement) or it's signal to fire.(my guess) He needs to test both of the signal wires to the coil for continuity end to end form the coil top the ECU

good article though.

#7 porcupine73

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 11:37 AM

He said no spark, not no fuel.

Oh spark! :dead:

OH SPARK! ok, I think I saw an article on endwrench about some certain ground wires to check that might back out or get loose resulting in weak or lost spark.....now where was that....

#8 porcupine73

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 11:41 AM

I can't find the article off hand, but I'm pretty sure it said to check F27 7&8 in this diagram for looseness/bad connection/ground:
Posted Image

OB99W mentioned the ignitor, have you checked that?

#9 aberti

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 03:57 PM

Thanks for all the info, I have to just find some time to poke around with the old fluke...I'll let you know what I find.

#10 aberti

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 03:20 PM

:banana:

OK, thanks to all here! I traced out power to the ignitor and wasn't sure of the output, pulses I figured, which are hard to read on a DVM, (I can't find my test light). So, off to the local Subie boneyard, and came home with two ignitors and a few connectors to make a test harness with. The ignitor did the trick.

Any thoughts on if I did damage to the cat with all the raw fuel blowing in there? I did drive it a few miles and got the flashing CEL, which is bad....

Anyway, thanks again to all!

BTW: John Hughes Auto Salvage is a great source of parts in the Hudson Valley.

#11 nipper

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 03:33 PM

:banana:

OK, thanks to all here! I traced out power to the ignitor and wasn't sure of the output, pulses I figured, which are hard to read on a DVM, (I can't find my test light). So, off to the local Subie boneyard, and came home with two ignitors and a few connectors to make a test harness with. The ignitor did the trick.

Any thoughts on if I did damage to the cat with all the raw fuel blowing in there? I did drive it a few miles and got the flashing CEL, which is bad....

Anyway, thanks again to all!

BTW: John Hughes Auto Salvage is a great source of parts in the Hudson Valley.


If the car started, and there was no loud BOOM followed by some excitement, the cat is fine.


A word of advice, always keep an analog volt meter around. They are cheap, and digital is not good for everything.

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#12 OB99W

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 06:50 PM

:banana:

OK, thanks to all here! [...]The ignitor did the trick.

You're welcome. Congrats!


A word of advice, always keep an analog volt meter around. They are cheap, and digital is not good for everything.

Good point, although if you can get your hands on one, an o'scope is an even better tool for chasing pulses.

#13 ron98

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 08:39 PM

Hi, i have a 98 impreza i just puchased. It doesn't have spark on #1 cylinder. I tried replacing the coil with the same result no spark.
The coil was used but i was told it was good. Any ideas?
Ron

#14 nipper

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 08:49 PM

www.endwrench.com

Engine archives

i remeber if something goes wrong with something else (egr maybe) there wil be no spark at #1 plug.

Double check.

#15 Cougar

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 08:44 AM

Another thing to check is the cog of the reluctor for the crankshaft sensor. Sometimes they get broken off and cause that kind of problem.

#16 Gloyale

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 09:56 AM

www.endwrench.com

Engine archives

i remeber if something goes wrong with something else (egr maybe) there wil be no spark at #1 plug.

Double check.


It is the IAC......and it is Fuel injector that is cut out.....not spark.

The ECU would not be capable of cutting spark to #1 and not to #2 as well since they are fired in pairs

#17 OB99W

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 10:51 AM

It is the IAC......and it is Fuel injector that is cut out.....not spark.

True, that's what is done. The injector is cut to disable the cylinder, rather than killing spark, because the other way around un-ignited fuel would just get pumped out at every cylinder #1 exhaust cycle. See: http://endwrench.com...InsiderInfo.pdf.


The ECU would not be capable of cutting spark to #1 and not to #2 as well since they are fired in pairs

It's true that the wasted-spark pair arrangement means firing cylinder #2 would also provide spark to #1. However, at the time that #2 is being lit, #1 is at the top of its exhaust stroke, and of course if the injector has been cut there's nothing to ignite. But that doesn't mean that the ECU couldn't cut ignition at the time #1 is near TDC of its power stroke (since doing so wouldn't affect #2 then, which would be at the top of its exhaust stroke) -- it's just more practical to cut fuel.

Getting back to ron98's problem, the first thing to verify is that #2 is getting a good spark. If so, then the ignitor and coil are probably okay, and as Cougar suggested, a damaged sprocket reluctor is a possible cause of the problem. Also, sometimes a weak enough signal from a position sensor can primarily affect firing of one particular cylinder.

#18 nipper

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 11:01 AM

It is the IAC......and it is Fuel injector that is cut out.....not spark.

The ECU would not be capable of cutting spark to #1 and not to #2 as well since they are fired in pairs



Ah ok. Its summer, its august, my birthday is this week, so my brain is taking a vacation ....



ooooooo shiney thing

:-p:drunk:

nipper

#19 nipper

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 11:04 AM

You can test the crank position sensor with an analog multimeter. It should be the same strength on all peeks.

We need to do the usual testing, move the aprk plug wires, check the plug etc.

Is there continuity between the two coil towers?


nipper

#20 ron98

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 06:10 PM

Hi. I was wrong. Both 1&2 do not have spark. I have been told igniter is in ciol . Is this correct or what and where is it? The injectors have juice. The car starts and runs, just on two cylinders 3&4.
Could it be the computer?
Thanks
ron

#21 Cougar

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 06:29 PM

Try swapping the known good coil with the other one and see if that helps. I know you changed out the coil already but I assume it wasn't proven to be ok before you put it in. If that doesn't help I suggest you check the crank sensor signal with a scope and verify it is ok.

Edited by Cougar, 27 August 2009 - 06:33 PM.


#22 OB99W

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 07:07 PM

I have been told igniter is in ciol . Is this correct or what and where is it? [...]

The igniter wasn't integrated with the coil until more recently. I believe it's mounted fairly high up on the firewall. It looks like the picture in this link: http://www2.remartau...ms/LX-682-STP02. If you need an igniter, get the number from yours and pick up one or two from a junkyard if possible ('95-'98 models should be correct, but match the number), rather than pay the high price of a new one.


Could it be the computer?

Yes, the ECU can fail in that manner, but it's not common. The igniter or wiring/connections to it are more common problems. If you have access to a volt/ohmmeter and know how to use it, I can post some EndWrench links to help with diagnosis.

#23 davebugs

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 07:30 PM

ECU's never seem to go bad.. Infact I don't even bother pulling them before scrapping the cars.

I do sell a few ignitors though. A couple per year it seems. I've never had a bad one on a car myself.

Coil packs are the #1 suspect as already mentioned if the wires are decent.

#24 ron98

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 05:49 PM

Thankyou. It was the ignitor. It runs on all cylinders but seem to have a rattle in the lower end. I have not change oil since i purchased it. I was trying to get it running right first. Do subaru motors have lower end noises.
Thanks
ron

#25 OB99W

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 09:38 PM

Thankyou. It was the ignitor. It runs on all cylinders

Congrats.


but seem to have a rattle in the lower end. I have not change oil since i purchased it. I was trying to get it running right first. Do subaru motors have lower end noises.

Subarus don't have particularly noisy ''lower'' ends (do we still call them ''lower'' or ''bottom'' on a boxer :) ?). However, if the engine was run with two cylinders not firing for any significant length of time, the oil might be fuel diluted. Change the oil and filter as soon as possible, and hope that results in less noise.




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