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4.44 and lockers


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25 replies to this topic

#1 FlatBlackS00b111

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 12:28 AM

Ive got the 5 speed dual range tranny out of a GL. I ordered the 444 gears from an 01 impreza.. Is that the right gears? and is there any recontamination on a lsd or locker for the front?

#2 Numbchux

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 03:07 AM

oh boy. there are no factory 4.444s that will fit in the part-time 4WD tranny. period.

there are no lockers for the front. but any front LSD for a 5-speed subaru will work. none of them will work very well for wheelin (most are helical, and are completely ineffective unless there's at least some resistance to both wheels).

#3 grossgary

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 03:13 AM

i thought chux would know details on that 4.44 stuff.

any front LSD for a 5-speed subaru will work. none of them will work very well for wheelin (most are helical,

aren't there some clutch type units out there? i thought i saw some when i was looking but also saw too many issues with them. reliability isn't worth sacrificing particularly for something that labor intensive that i don't necessarily need. but if i could find a clutch type that's reliable i'd get it.

never heard of lockers on a soob. i emailed one company and they never wrote back (probably still laughing!).

#4 Phizinza

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 03:22 AM

I'm pretty sure the 4.44 crown wheel doesn't fit with the EA82's 1.59 to 1 low range either..
I've heard 4.11 with will fit, or maybe that was with a little ground off the crown wheel.

Because of the FWD/4WD the pinion (shaft, because all front pinions on subarus are part of the shaft) on the EA82 D/R box is very different to the AWD EJ boxes. So if you want a EJ ratio you need the EJ gears and center diff including the rear casing.

Lockers? No, don't exist for front or rear. Sorry.

#5 grossgary

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 03:33 AM

at the bottom of this page is a "similar threads" list. read through those, there is some interesting information there and GD mentions having a Lincoln Locker installed in his.

#6 Numbchux

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 02:54 PM

at the bottom of this page is a "similar threads" list. read through those, there is some interesting information there and GD mentions having a Lincoln Locker installed in his.


The name Lincoln Locker comes from the Lincoln brand welder.......it's a welded diff.

#7 SubPar

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 04:03 PM

It would be nice if ARB made some air lockers for Subarus. You think there would be a moderate demand down in Brumbyland.

#8 3eyedwagon

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 05:08 PM

It would be nice if ARB made some air lockers for Subarus. You think there would be a moderate demand down in Brumbyland.


I think that is the problem. The demand is moderate at most, and the tooling cost to build such things would probably outweigh the immediate return. Any company willing to make these MAY get their money back, and even make money over a long term, but that's a risk most smart companies aren't willing to make. Too bad though. I'd love onboard air, and air lockers on my wagon!:lol:

#9 subaru360

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 05:45 PM

Those 4.444 front gears aren't cheap new. They are almost $400 for the set. I know because I've been looking for a set for my wrx used. Only thing in the US that used 4.444 in a five speed is the forester turbo. Rear 4.444's are easy to come by from automatic outbacks.

#10 Phizinza

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 06:31 PM

I talked to a local auto locker company and they said if there was enough interest they would make them.. I finally got it out of them that enough was around 500 people. I'm sure you could find 500 people who would say "I'll take one". But when it comes down to getting people to pre pay you'll probably only get 50 or so, and then they won't get made and then its a money game sorting out where it all goes back to...
I went to a tranmission specialist I was recommended to and he said he could do it. But he screwed me round by telling me it was done and then when I went to pick it up it wasn't (and its over an hours drive there).
ARB wouldn't even talk to me, not interested.

This is all for the rear. Which is a R160, very common diff in old small RWD jap cars.
For the front (special Subaru only diff) I doubt you'd get enough interest in it as pulling down a gearbox isn't for very many people, and it would be an auto locker which is not much fun in the front on road. Getting an air locker made really is just out of the question for the front diff.

Sad, but true.

#11 The Beast I Drive

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 07:33 PM

I wonder, who here knows if the components inside Nissan rear axles are the same or close to the same as the Subaru diff parts, cuz if they are, many doors start to open...

#12 awesomedude

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 08:32 PM

Problem is Nissan typically uses r180 or bigger,no one cares about the r160 (for good reason really) Subaru really should have used r180's from the start.

#13 subaru360

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 09:21 PM

Problem is Nissan typically uses r180 or bigger,no one cares about the r160 (for good reason really) Subaru really should have used r180's from the start.


Some old datsuns used the R160 510's and maybe others.

#14 Phizinza

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:06 PM

Yes, the 510 (or known as 1600 here in Australia) uses R160's. The 240z I believe does too (no, sorry it does, it has an R180), although most people convert the later model R180 or R200. This obviously is making you think, well if they use R160's and convert to R200 then can't we and use the R200 ARB locker? Well the problem is half axles. The Nissan/Datsun use bolt on DOJ's, not splined. But if you have the time and money to look into the 280z, 300zx diffs and shafts maybe it would be possible. But that is a heavy diff to spin and lug around in the back of a Subaru.

This is some info I collected back in the day ARB was making R180 lockers.

R180 Casing

240Z
70-73 MT (3.364) (R180)
70-73 AT (3.545) (R180)

260Z
74 MT (3.364) (R180)
74 AT (3.545) (R180)
77-78 AT (3.545) (R180)

280ZX
79 MT 4 Spd, (3.364) (R180)
79 MT 5 Spd, (3.364) (R180)
79 AT (3.545) (R180)
80 MT (3.545) (R180)
80 AT (3.545) (R180)
81-83 w/o Turbo,AT (3.545) (R180)


6/83 to 12/85
720 Navara 4.11 diff center, possibly pinion gear
Shortnose

80's 180/200SX N/A R180, what ratios ???

NIssan maxima 3.7 R180? 80's?

I think they were all the longnose too. As appose to the shortnose R series diffs.
FYI the longnose R series are all the same length, and use the same bolt pattern on the propshaft. So no need for a modified propshaft. I think the rear mount is different spacing though.

#15 awesomedude

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 06:04 PM

That info is questionable.

A: There was only one year of the 260z and the 280 started in 75

B: That info shows no r200's which would be found on most cars i think 75-76 on

Anywho heres some hitachi diff info as well:


R160, 510, WRX
Ratios 3.90. 4.44
No LSD on Datsun, Subaru Clutch type

R180, 240Z, 260Z, 280Z, 280ZX
Ratios 3.36, 3.545, 3.90
No LSD

R180, Nissan 720 4x4 pickup (early 1980s) front diff
Ratios 4.11, 4.38
No LSD

R180, 810/Maxima late 1970s and early 1980s
Ratios 3.70 and 3.90
No LSD

R190, Long Nose 240Z 432R
Ratios 3.90
two pinion clutch LSD

R190, Long Nose Nissan Motorsports
Any Ratio
four pinion clutch LSD

R200 long nose, 280Z, 280ZX, 300ZX
Ratios 3.36, 3.545, 3.70, 3.90
LSD April 1987 and newer turbo

R200V long nose 1, 1988 SS
Ratios 3.70
LSD Viscous

R200V Short nose, 5 Bolt ouput shafts (240SX)
Ratios 3.90, 4.08
LSD Viscous

R200V Short nose, Q45 1989-1996 , 6 Bolt ouput shafts
Ratios 3.545
LSD Viscous

R200V Short nose rear of a R32 GTR skyline, 5 bolt output
Ratio 4.36
LSD clutch type

R200V Short nose, 300ZX NA, 5 Bolt ouput shafts
Ratios 4.09
LSD Viscous

R200V Short nose 350Z, 6 Bolt ouput shafts, Single bolt on rear cover
Ratios 3.36, 3.545
Open Base, LSD Viscous on other models

R230 Short nose, 300ZX TT, 6 Bolt ouput shafts
Ratios 3.69
LSD Viscous

R230 Short nose, Armada, Large 6 Bolt ouput shafts (bigger than 300ZXTT)
Ratios 2.946, 3.13
No LSD

#16 Phizinza

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 09:30 PM

That info is questionable.

For you US people I guess... Things are different here in AUs.

#17 awesomedude

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 03:31 PM

For you US people I guess... Things are different here in AUs.


Ohhhh..of course.Sorry about that,makes more sense now i guess.


For you US people


:lol: :lol: Yea we suck lol

#18 discopotato03

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Posted 16 April 2008 - 04:19 AM

BTW you CAN use EJ ratios in an AWD L or XT4 box because the hollow shaft with the countershaft gears is dimensionally the same for both types of AWD transmission .

The center diff in the L AWD type is longest of all these Subaru front pinions . So the matching set would be L type AWD front pinion/center diff/short extention with diff lock selector mechanism .
The other matching set is the EJ type AWD system with the Ej pinion/viscous coupling center diff/separate transfer driven gear shaft and the longer extention .

Here in Australia some mobs grind (with coolant) the crownwheel for clearance when 4.44's are used with the shorter LR gears .

Ways and means , cheers A .

#19 Phizinza

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 09:02 PM

Just to confirm, you cannot use EJ pinion with EA FT4WD center diff. So you cannot use a EJ ratio with an FT4WD box. You can however put EJ ratios in an EA box by using the EJ's rear casing and center diff.

#20 discopotato03

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 04:49 AM

No not true , both L/XT and EJ gearboxes can use either set of main box gears because the hollow countershaft and its gears is interchangeable - provided you set the diff pinions height shimming correctly . The top shaft SR or DR is interchangeable but needs the matching cases .

Its the pinion shaft that's different so it has to be in a matching set of either L/XT lockable or EJ viscous meaning pinion/center diff/extension/shift rods .

As I mentioned before we have in Australia a mob who can separate the pinion shaft from its gear and weld it back together with any sized pinion gear you like . The fabrication is done properly and they DON'T break , they are X rayed re heat treated etc .

This is what it takes to have a lockable box with 4.1 and 4.44 final drives and some have done this here in Aus . They even relieve the crown wheel so they can run the shorter L series low range gears if needed .

So for ~$400 AUD you can do this or even the never made std 3.7 ratio viscous type pinion .

About the only combination no one's ever come up with is a viscous center diff with a dog clutch lock , that would please everyone .

Cheers A .

#21 Phizinza

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 11:10 PM

No not true , both L/XT and EJ gearboxes can use either set of main box gears because the hollow countershaft and its gears is interchangeable - provided you set the diff pinions height shimming correctly . The top shaft SR or DR is interchangeable but needs the matching cases .

If you had read what I wrote you would of understood I meant that the pinion is not change able. For your average joe that is. I would of thought most people here know that most people here aren't into expensive custom mods like welding pinions and shafts together. I know that you can use the gears from all those boxes, but you can't just bolt in a different ratio to a FT4WD gearbox.


I know you know what your talking about. But making a statement that reads like this can be (and has been in the past) misleading to many readers.

BTW you CAN use EJ ratios in an AWD L or XT4 box because the hollow shaft with the countershaft gears is dimensionally the same for both types of AWD transmission .

This makes it sounds like you can use an EJ ratio with a FT locking box. Which you can unless you are filled with cash.
Which I do realise many Subaru owners in Australia are filled with cash but if you've been on ultimatesubaru long you would know that any talk of expensive custom parts is just talk.

#22 Numbchux

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 11:42 PM

hmmm.....looks like someone gave up :(
http://portland.crai.../649763065.html

#23 discopotato03

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 09:12 AM

I guess we must agree to differ then , can't to me means not physically possible . The financial aspect is a different matter entirely .

If it makes you feel any better my locking box started out as a single range Vortex XT4 one that was converted to dual range then freighted to me . Its going back to the gearbox doctor to have its gearset changed to 92 Legacy DR closer ratios and will owe me 3/4 of what my RX cost to buy .

A .

#24 Phizinza

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 06:56 PM

...

Bloody aussies and all their money... lol :lol: :-p

I just see no point in saying something is possible when if you take money out of it its all possible. Your just giving people fantasies about things they can't afford and by the time they can they won't bother with a Subaru.

Enjoy your RX

#25 discopotato03

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 11:06 PM

Actually the goal posts moved yesterday .

The dual range converted XT4 box is now going in with std ratios and the spare one is going to the gearbox surgeons for the close ratio gearset change and possibly the L wagon shorter low range gears . ;)

Cheers A ...




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