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S'ko's 2000 OBS repair thread (combined EJ18 & EJ25 threads)


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9 replies to this topic

#1 s'ko

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 10:31 AM

Like it says.... I have driving my OBS on a spirited run last night and it started to make this nasty noise known as dead bottom end. :dead:

It was only 128,000 miles young....


What to do?

1) take the EJ22t motor I am building and put it into the OBS. (have to modify the crossmember and modify the exhaust, use the harness from the EJ22T) but then when I have to smog it in April 2010 I will have to remove the engine
2) temporarily put in the EJ18 long block I have in my garage and rebuild the EJ22 at my leisure
3) go to the JY and get a EJ22 long block and swap it out
4) part it out b/c it’s pretty banged up

#2 GLCraig

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 10:46 AM



2) temporarily put in the EJ18 long block I have in my garage and rebuild the EJ22 at my leisure
3) go to the JY and get a EJ22 long block and swap it out


Either one will get you back on the road in a week or less.

#3 mellow65

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 10:41 PM

1) take the EJ22t motor I am building and put it into the OBS. (have to modify the crossmember and modify the exhaust, use the harness from the EJ22T) but then when I have to smog it in April 2010 I will have to remove the engine


would be fun but not worth yanking it every couple years just to pass smog


2) temporarily put in the EJ18 long block I have in my garage and rebuild the EJ22 at my leisure


this is what i would do. it gives you a chance to go through a motor and play around and still have your car. and this swap is only a few hour swap.

that's what i'm doing with an old ej22 in my garage, going to take it apart and do a rebuild. what it's going in, heck i don't know, but it's half the fun just tearing it apart and putting it back together.

#4 Numbchux

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 12:23 AM

Either one will get you back on the road in a week or less.


agreed.

#5 grossgary

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 10:32 AM

if it's banged up like you say then i'd probably go the EJ18 route. you already have the motor and it'll drop right in.

#6 s'ko

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 10:13 PM

Yeah I am going the EJ18 route to get the car working and then I will rebuild the EJ22. Maybe try to get a little more power out of it while it's out:grin:

Unfortunately, I don't have garage space right now to do the swap b/c the RX is in the middle of the conversion.

I might finish up the RX swap first and then get the OBS in line for a motor swap.

BW

#7 s'ko

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 05:57 PM

OBDI EJ18 long block into OBDII EJ22 car

S'ko
For those who don't know, I spun a bearing on my EJ22 motor and I need to get this car running. the EJ18 is only temporary until I get the EJ22 rebuilt.

So the main issues that I see right now are
1) Need dual port exhaust header.
2) Need to figure out how to bolt on a knock sensor

anything else anyone can think of?

Thanks

BW
____________________________
mellow65

maybe egr not sure if yours had one or the 1.8 had one.

the coolant cross over tube (thing under intake). some of the newer stuff went to a single temp sensor and the older stuff had two. in my swap i just swapped the cross over tube from 2.2 on to (in my case) the 2.5. it bolted up and i didn't need to worry about swapping the sensors.

your cam and crank sensors, and your oil pressure sensor. but those are an easy swap.

as for your exhaust, snag anything from a obd2 ej25 or very early 2.2. they have the duel port and the crazy turn in the exhaust that should bolt up. if you were closer, i have one just sitting in my garage i would let you use.

i'm not sure if the 1.8 had a threaded hole for a knock sensor, but i have seen guys move them to the top of the engine side of the bell housing.

can't think of anything else right now. i will put more if i can think of anything.

good luck. :)
____________________________
grossgary

it would help to know what year EJ22 you're talking about and whether it's from an auto or manual.

the knock sensor will bolt right up. the hole is there and i think it's even threaded (at least on mine it was).

you'll need to fabricate a block off plate for the hole in the passengers side head exhaust port. i cut one out of steel plate, used the original EJ18 gasket that goes there and coated it with sealant on both sides.

bolt the EJ22 intake manifold to the EJ18.

i think i covered everything in your other thread.
____________________________
subaru360

I have a few of the dual port headers from a legacy if it's the same and you need one.
____________________________
grossgary

Quote:
Originally Posted by subaru360
I have a few of the dual port headers from a legacy if it's the same and you need one.

that will work, i've bolted EJ25 headers right up to an EJ18. no problems, direct fit. and i've also had a set of headers shipped before. tape some cardboard to them and slapped a label on it. cover any sharp edges and wipe off dirt/oil.

____________________________
s'ko

2000 OBDII motor 5 spd manual.

Subaru360 pm'ed you for headers
____________________________
grossgary

Quote:
Originally Posted by s'ko
2000 OBDII motor

oh crack. i didn't realize you were working on something that late, this will likely have some issues.

that will have an EGR valve though, so that's easy enough.

the intake manifold changed on the EJ22 at some point and won't bolt up to the EJ18. i think a 2000 might fall under this umbrella. so your 2000 EJ22 intake won't bolt to your EJ18 engine.

if the 2000 intake manifold won't bolt up to the EJ18 you're next option is to swap the entire 2000 wiring harness onto the EJ18 intake manifold. a bit of a job but not out of this world...if everything is compatible which i can't answer but i would think it's workable at least.

the EJ18 manifold is a messy animal so you might play with the idea of finding an earlier EJ22 intake manifold and swapping the 2000 intake wiring harness onto that. so......put your 2000 intake manifold wiring on a 95-98 EJ22 intake manifold and bolt that to your EJ18 - just an idea.

on earlier...say up to 1998 or so...you can swap EJ18,Ej22,EJ25's and not swap cams. but on the later models...i think your 2000 will be one of them, you'll likely need to retain your cams. so you'll need to bolt the 2000 EJ22 cams to your EJ18 engine. this is...speculation based on experience if that makes any sense? i haven't done this exact swap nor do i recall exact years and difference, but i'm pretty sure this will be the case for an EJ18 swap into a 2000 EJ22.
____________________________
s'ko

So what you're telling me is that it might not be a simple 1 day swap.

hmm.... that sucks.

BW
____________________________
grossgary

Quote:
Originally Posted by s'ko
So what you're telling me is that it might not be a simple 1 day swap.

i'm leary of it being a simple one-day job. i think you'll find you have the newer EJ22 that is not the same as 1998 and earlier EJ22's and EJ18's.

if you find out they are different then the way to make it quick is to get a 2000 intake manifold (just like yours) or just the wiring harness if someone has one and try to swap it to an EJ22 intake of an earlier year that will bolt to your EJ18...of course you'd hate for that not to work.

basically you need to find out if your 2000 wiring harness will easily swap onto an earlier EJ22 intake (1998 or earlier). i would think it does, but can't promise that. the main thing to check is the fuel rails and fuel injector connectors.

you could probably bolt your 2000 EJ22 heads to the EJ18, but that's a can of worms i don't know about. and i wouldn't want to go through all that, then you need to check and mill the heads, buy head gaskets and adjust the valves. more money and time.
____________________________
s'ko

Quote:
Originally Posted by grossgary
you could probably bolt your 2000 EJ22 heads to the EJ18, but that's a can of worms i don't know about. and i wouldn't want to go through all that, then you need to check and mill the heads, buy head gaskets and adjust the valves. more money and time.


I do plan to use a ej25 shortblock and make a high compression frankenmotor. I just wanted somthing that i could fix quickly and be able to drive it.

If I this is going to be more complicated than a long block swap, I am going to have to hold off until the RX is out of the garage. I am really close to getting it all back together.

BW

#8 s'ko

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 06:01 PM

s'ko1998 EJ25 engine and tranny swap into 2000 EJ22 OBS

from what I read, the ej18 is not going to work w/o some issues.

Found a EJ25 for a good price w/a 5spd tranny.
my tranny's synchros were going out so it's a good time to do both.

Here are a few questions.

1) EJ25 is that pretty much a plug and play for the EJ22 ECU?

2) The new tranny has a hydraulic clutch cable do I need to retrofit the hydraulic system into my car?

Thanks for the input.

BW
_____________________
mellow65

if it's a dohc ej25 then it should be more plug and play. just think of the outbacks to ej22 swap but in reverse. you do still need a duel port header. if it's a sohc that's a whole different ball of wax. i put one in my 90 legacy, but i have no IAC. it's just something I live with because it's my rally car and cold starts are the least of my worries. it's just because the sohc ej25s have the IAC on the throttle body and the ej22s have them on the intake manifold. the IAC on the sohc ej25 don't even have close to the same plug (mine didn't because it was OBD1, may be different on OBD2 ej22s).

there is rumor that some JDM wrxs had intakes that bolt onto the sohc heads and have the IAC mounted on the intake. I wasn't ever able to find one and check for myself. The other path to try is to use a ej18 throttle body because it has the IAC mounted on the throttle body. I was going to try this route but I never could find one to mount on my car. The plugs are the same on the ej18 IAC and the ej22 IAC I just don't know if the computer would run it.

As for your tranny, i have found that the NA trannys (and maybe turbo, just don't know) will take your cable clutch shift fork. i had a cable set up on a 03 RS tranny in my 90 legacy and it worked fine.

if you do get a 2.5 motor you might just think of doing the 2.5 block 2.2 head hybrid motor. lots of people have done that and seem to be real happy with it. that is if your heads are in good shape. but even to have them redone i found someone here local that would fully redo both for under $150, so it's not that bad to have them redone.

good luck:)
_____________________
s'ko

Quote:
Originally Posted by mellow65
if it's a dohc ej25 then it should be more plug and play. just think of the outbacks to ej22 swap but in reverse. you do still need a dual port header.


It's a DOHC motor. and comes with a set of Borlas.

Quote:
As for your tranny, i have found that the NA trannys (and maybe turbo, just don't know) will take your cable clutch shift fork. i had a cable set up on a 03 RS tranny in my 90 legacy and it worked fine.


found a thread by legacy777 on nasioc on how to get the fork to work

Quote:
if you do get a 2.5 motor you might just think of doing the 2.5 block 2.2 head hybrid motor. lots of people have done that and seem to be real happy with it. that is if your heads are in good shape. but even to have them redone i found someone here local that would fully redo both for under $150, so it's not that bad to have them redone.

good luck:)

thought about going that route, but this is a complete EJ25 that was taken out of a 1998 RS to do a 05 STi swap into. There is no problems with the motor. I will be taking the heads off and replacing the head gaskets to make sure they don't pop.

Sounds like this is going to be the new engine for my OBS. :banana:
_____________________
s'ko

MORE good news.

According to the previous said that he has already done the head gaskets.

woo hoo.. OBS will rise again.

Now I have a spare EJ22 n/a block I can rebuild and play with. looks like an EJ22 will be residing in my BRAT in the near future.

BW
_____________________
grossgary

awesome - new headgaskets!

AH!!!! you need to remind people of the years of the stuff you're working with. there are significant changes through they years and when doing a swap it's not enough to say "EJ22" or "EJ25".

as long as SOHC and DOHC EJ25 intake manifolds are interchangeable that's good (and i think they are).

the bellhousing changed around 1999 - so you'll be putting a 4 bolt to an 8 bolt i believe. but that can be worked around if that's the case.

most significantly because this is a 2000 you're going to have "special considerations" that don't apply to earlier EJ22's...hence my remark about verifying what you're doing earlier. i think you'll need to retain the EJ22 cam pulleys, or at least the one with the sensor triggers on it. normally you'd swap all the pulleys over if it was SOHC to SOHC...but being DOHC i'm not sure.
_____________________
mellow65

Quote:
Originally Posted by grossgary
as long as SOHC and DOHC EJ25 intake manifolds are interchangeable that's good (and i think they are).


they aren't, they moved the bolt holes.
_____________________
s'ko

Quote:
Originally Posted by mellow65
they aren't, they moved the bolt holes.


I am getting the complete engine. So I will have intake manfold, injectors and all of the other fun stuff that comes on an 1998 EJ25.

BW
_____________________
grossgary

i don't know that the 98 electronics are compatible with the 2000 stuff. do you know if the 98 stuff (Phase I) will plug in and work with the 2000 (Phase II) stuff? there's not much information on doing swaps across Phase I and Phase II, so it's a mix of related knowledge to get you there. what i'm sure of is that it is not like other EJ swaps.

swapping engine and trans sounds like a great plan. you'll just need the rear differential to match since it'll be a different gear ratio. the RS should probably be a 4.44 gear ratio, so you'll need a 4.44 rear diff to swap in too. actually i think i have a 4.44 rear diff i'd sell if you need one.

the 2000 vehicle is not going to be compatible with the RS EJ25, i know that for sure that it will not be a drop in and plug and play scenario.

not sure if swapping ECU's would work (it does on 1998 and earlier...not sure about 2000's). if the wiring didn't change this will work. i have a DOHC ECU i could sell if that's the case.

all you need to do is look at the wiring diagrams for a Phase I DOHC EJ25 and a Phase II SOHC EJ22 (or Phase II SOHC EJ25 will be the same). i have the former but not the later. i'll send it to you if you need it, or post here.

no matter what you do the DOHC cams will not work with your 2000 EJ22 vehicle....that's why trying the EJ25 DOHC ECU might be worth looking into. then everything becomes plug and play.
_____________________
grossgary

Quote:
Originally Posted by mellow65
they aren't, they moved the bolt holes.

great information mellow - i was wondering... that rules out the easy solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s'ko
I am getting the complete engine. So I will have intake manfold, injectors and all of the other fun stuff

the issue isn't whether or not you got the intake manifold...intake manifolds are everywhere and easy to find. what matters is that the electronics are compatible between these two engines.

having the intake manifold with the engine doesn't mean anything. i can go buy hundreds of different motors, ford, dodge, ferrari, with intake manifolds but if the wiring and plugs don't match up it doesn't matter. so now you hope the electronics didn't change.

hold on to your EJ22 intake wiring harness after you pull the motor and try to keep it in good condition just in case you have to try and install it onto your EJ25 intake manifold.
_____________________
mellow65

Quote:
Originally Posted by s'ko
I am getting the complete engine. So I will have intake manfold, injectors and all of the other fun stuff that comes on an 1998 EJ25.

BW


i got that i was clearing it up for grossgary.

this should be a pretty strait forward swap unless they changed harness plugs along the way.

also that should be a fun little car after you are done. i love my ej25 powered legacy and got to think a 2.5 obs would be even better. one thing that i ran into was the grade of fuel i had to run. because of the bump in compression and the fact that ej22 ecus have the second steepest ignition curve (only to be out done by the ej18) i had some detonation in the higher rpms. the knock sensor took care of it but it also sucked my power in doing so. my solution was to run super and it took care of it. but i'm using mine in a rally car. with normal driving i didn't feel any loss of power.
_____________________
mellow65

Quote:
Originally Posted by grossgary
great information mellow - i was wondering...

that means you can't bolt your EJ22 intake to the EJ25. the issue isn't whether or not you got the intake manifold...intake manifolds are everywhere and easy to find. what matters is that the electronics are compatible between these two engines.

if the intake manifold bolts up (which we now know it doesn't), then it's very easy....just bolt your Ej22 intake onto your EJ25 engine....but we just found out that's not possible.

so now you hope the electronics didn't change. having the intake manifold with the engine doesn't mean anything. i can go buy hundreds of different motors, ford, dodge, ferrari, with intake manifolds but if the wiring and plugs don't match up it doesn't matter.

hold on to your EJ22 intake wiring harness after you pull the motor and try to keep it in good condition just in case you have to try and install it onto your EJ25 intake manifold.



but the nice thing is subaru followed the K.I.S.S. "keep it simple stupid".

so many things are interchangeable on the ej series motors. this is why it was crazy easy to swap a 99 motor into my 90 legacy. sure there were a couple little things to overcome but nothing was crazy. even if he has to pull the harness off of his 2.2 and snake it onto the 2.5 it still is easy. that part of my swap took all of 5 mins.

or even if they changed all the plugs and sensors make it work. the only part of the 99 ej25 electronics i am running on my car is the injectors. nothing else. ever other sensor and plug is strait off a ej22. and i only had to do that because i had a phase 2 ej25 and they changed damn near every plug and wire between the phase 1 and 2 ej25.
_____________________
s'ko


Thanks for all of the info.

I think that I am going to go the route of taking the EJ22 intake harness off and using it on the EJ25. I mean all of the sensors should be there, cam angle, crank angle, knock etc. It's just getting the signal to the correct pin in the ECU. If I use the EJ22 harness I will not have to play with wires, I will just have to make sure that the appropriate connectors are plugged into the sensor. I have diagrams for both engines. I need to go over them and compare the two. Hopefully this will be a one day, at most a two day weekend job, b/c I am going to borrow a neighbor's garage space to do it.

Will keep you posted

#9 s'ko

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 06:19 PM

Ok so synopsis of the two threads is that with the phase 2 2000 EJ22, the earlier EJ's will have sensor issues and may require extensive harness rewiring to get it to work right.

The EJ18 route was a bandaid fix. bolt up the 1993 OBD1 EJ18 and then rebuild the 2000 OBD2 EJ22. I have a EJ18 in my garage and I also have a complete harness and ECU for it. I could strip the harness and then use the EJ18 harness and ECU to run the EJ18. This would be a similar set up to the EJ swaps on the EA cars. Like I said this would allow for me to drive my Impreza while I rebuild the engine. It will either be a stock rebuild to a High Compression Frankenstein EJ25 shortblock w/EJ22 heads.

The EJ25 route is a more permanent route. Bolt up the 1998 EJ25 DOHC and then use the existing 2000 EJ22 ECU and harness to run it. From what I have read and discovered, 1) this has rarely been done and 2) there is no real success story with this working. The one way that people are able to make this work is by running the engine with the EJ25 ECU. EJ25 has a MAF sensor and the 2000 EJ22 has a MAP sensor for air flow measurements. I can get the ECU from the seller, but he is keeping the harness for the swap. I might be able to hack the 2000 EJ22 engine harness to work with the EJ25 ECU, but I am not even sure that the connectors will plug up. and it would take a long time to get it running.

if I can get the Rx moving by the end of the month, there might be hope of going through with the EJ25 route. Otherwise the EJ18 route looks like a go.

So here is what I am going to do
1) hack EJ18 harness
2) pull EJ22 and swap in the EJ18
3) Tap the EJ18 harness to the OBS harness for power.
4) source headers for the EJ18.
5) repair the EJ22 and then put it back in.

#10 grossgary

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 10:46 PM

if you want to use the EJ18 i think i'd at least look into fitting the 2000 EJ22 intake wiring harness onto the EJ18 block.

93 EJ18 block
95-98 EJ22 intake manifold
2000 EJ22 intake manifold wiring harness

you would only need to verify that your 2000 EJ22 cam pulleys will bolt to the EJ18 block. if so, this would be easy. bottom end problems = car aint running anyway right? yank a cam pulley off and find out!

if the EJ22 heads bolted up to the EJ18 you could swap the heads onto the EJ18 block. then your 2000 intake manifold bolts right up to the block and you got no wiring/ECU work to do.

if you're all up for the wiring work then tear it up, that has to work if it's done right.




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