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Can Timing Marks be OFF???!!!


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20 replies to this topic

#1 sube_forester

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 10:50 AM

We are still unable to get our 1995 Legacy sedan to start.
timing belt was removed but marks NOT ligned up beforehand.
Reinstalled timing belt by aligning marks, won't start. Car was running before timing belt removal. Engine is 2.2, automatic.
Any ideas on how to verify the marks "|" are still in the right place?? Car was bought used so don't know whole history.
Please help, Thank you :confused:

#2 Gloyale

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 10:57 AM

We are still unable to get our 1995 Legacy sedan to start.
timing belt was removed but marks NOT ligned up beforehand.
Reinstalled timing belt by aligning marks, won't start. Car was running before timing belt removal. Engine is 2.2, automatic.
Any ideas on how to verify the marks "|" are still in the right place?? Car was bought used so don't know whole history.
Please help, Thank you :confused:



Are you sure you used the correct mark on the Crank gear? It's mark is actually on the Crank sensor tabs on the rear of the Crank sprocket.

Not the arrows.

#3 sube_forester

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 11:11 AM

:banghead:

Are you sure you used the correct mark on the Crank gear? It's mark is actually on the Crank sensor tabs on the rear of the Crank sprocket.

Not the arrows.


Yes, we used all the correct marks. Still won't start. Used "Endwrench" article as guide and still can't get car to start.:banghead:

#4 Gloyale

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 11:16 AM

:banghead:

Yes, we used all the correct marks. Still won't start. Used "Endwrench" article as guide and still can't get car to start.:banghead:



Well. Did you unplug anything else? Did you remove the CAm gears? Possibly reinstall them on the wrong side or not located on the dowel pin properly??


Otherwise, If the car ran before you changed the belt, and nothing else was disturbed, and now won't run, then you don't have the belt on right.

Double double check belt alignment.

#5 sregor13

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 12:34 PM

I didn't see this in the Article from Endwrench but another manual we have instructed the the #1 Cylinder be at Top Dead Center before aligning the Cam Sprockets and all that. Also what happpens when you turn the key? Anything at all?

#6 sube_forester

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 02:05 PM

I didn't see this in the Article from Endwrench but another manual we have instructed the the #1 Cylinder be at Top Dead Center before aligning the Cam Sprockets and all that. Also what happpens when you turn the key? Anything at all?

The engine turns, sometimes there is a backfire. Could the crank be off 360 degrees? How do I verify the #1 is @ TDC?

Is it possible that the engine is not turning at the propper speed to start? We put in a new starter also a new water pump.

How many times around does it take for the timing belt marks and sprocket marks to line up again all together?? :banghead:

#7 Gloyale

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 02:21 PM

The engine turns, sometimes there is a backfire. Could the crank be off 360 degrees? How do I verify the #1 is @ TDC?


LOL. no, it's not possible for the crank to be 360 degrees off.

Is it possible that the engine is not turning at the propper speed to start? We put in a new starter also a new water pump.


No, a good running EJ should fire up if it's spinning at all.

How many times around does it take for the timing belt marks and sprocket marks to line up again all together?? :banghead:


Okay, here's the heart of the problem. You're getting overly confused by complicating this. The lines on the belt are IRRELAVANT. I ignore them entirely, as often they are wrong. Especially if it's an aftermarket belt.

Ignore the notches on the timing cover as well. The covers distort with time and heat. Just go by when the hash marks(not arrows) on the pulleys are excactly straight up(a line drawn through the center of the pulley and the mark should be excactly vertical).

All that matters is the alignment marks of the pulleys are all up and excactly vertical all 3 at the same time when you install the belt.


Note also that the belt install marks on the pulleys ARE NOT TDC for #1. IIRC It's about half way through it's compression stroke. The reason for this is to position the majority of the cam lobes in an *unloaded* state for belt installation. This lessens the tendancy of the CAMs to *snap* off the mark.

#8 Gloyale

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 02:26 PM

I didn't see this in the Article from Endwrench but another manual we have instructed the the #1 Cylinder be at Top Dead Center before aligning the Cam Sprockets and all that.


That manual is wrong. Subaru timing belt installation is not done a TDC. The timing belt install marks ARE NOT THE SAME as TDC.

#9 frag

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 03:04 PM

I think sregor is referring to Haynes. Haynes says to put the front timing mark (on the crank pulley) to zero (gradations on the outside of the front cover) AND put cyl no 1 at TDC. The result of that is the three (cams and crank) timing marks are already aligned when you open the cam covers. I did that the first time I replaced the belt, and it works. The second time, I just removed the belt and placed the pulleys in proper alignment.

I think this procedure is useful mainly if you want to check the belt alignment without removing the belt and not spend to much time spinning the belt to have the three timing marks finaly align.

By the way, the belt marks (on a OEM belt) are useful, for a non professionnal like me at least. If you dont use them, it happens that when you release the tensionner the three pulleys triming marks go out of whack.

#10 OB99W

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 03:31 PM

Making sure that the proper sprocket marks are all at 12 o'clock is important, but it's not a bad idea to do a belt tooth count as well to verify the positioning.

#11 aircraft engineer

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 03:53 PM

CRANK KEYWAY goes DOWN and the timing mark is on the tab that is UP.

Driver side cam sprocket is the one with the "lobes" on the backside. Pax side DOESN'T HAVE THE LOBES. Make sure you have the dowel pins engaged into the CAM notch on the END of the cam itself and the bolt torqued down.

The cam TIMING MARKS are LINES in the sprocket (not arrows) - they line up with the notches on the timing belt COVER and the LINES on the belt go there as well. IF the 3 lines match the timing marks and the timing marks are where they MUST BE (indicating "in time") IT IS CORRECT.

Check the cam and crank sensors - make sure they are FULLY plugged in and screwed down.

That endwrench article is about the best way of showing EXACTLY how it has to be - it sure beats Chilton (and I haven't seen the Haynes so I can't say about it)

You can turn the crank 360 IF you want, but it's the identical position in time - remember, the CAMS are timed to the crank THRU THE BELT

It's not like some vehicles where they CAN be 360 (1 full turn) out - like on my Mercedes diesel where the injection pump is timed to the CRANK and the valves are timed to the crank but the 2 aren't tied together except thru the chain.

360 out is POSSIBLE in that engine - causing injection at the top of the EXHAUST. In the SUB it CAN'T HAPPEN.

IF it won't run, there is either a broken sensor or it's out of time. NO OTHER POSSIBILITIES unless the coil pack is disconnected or the plug wires are off. (or out of fuel or fuel filter is plugged)

GAS + in time spark = run

YOU DID CHECK FOR SPARK??

#12 davebugs

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 05:20 PM

I know these pics are available several places but I just took them while double checking my timing belt since I have no compression in the newly installed JY engine.

Perhaps this will help. I always mark the markings with white nail polish - seems to dry quicker than paint and it only costs a buck.

Dave

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#13 EVOthis

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 06:03 PM

also.....you can always count teeth to make sure your dead on.......

#14 aircraft engineer

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 10:24 PM

Newly assembled - did you check the sprockets to see if they had both the pickup lobes for the drivers side, plain for the pax side PLUS were there dowel pin keys in the sprockets behind the BOLTS? hate to say this but you might need to pull the belt back off and pull the sprockets and look at them. the dragon had a dowel pin missing on the driver's side and I'm surprised it RAN at all - I'm pretty sure they just lined it up and torqued he!! out of it onto the cam and called it good.

Timing belt positions appear to be OK even if you didn't put the lines notches/timing marks - appears to be 6 belt cogs between the "where it is" and the "lines"

Can't understand "no compression" though - ALL cyls? Sure doesn't make sense unless the valves are bent or something else catastrophic. The timing looks OK

I guess the bigger question was if it was running when it made it to the JY

#15 jamal

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 01:38 AM

you probably have the arrow aligned with the belt on the crank.

If you bought the belt at a dealership, the belt is right.

The marks on the gears are right.

Pull the fans, take off the belt, and re-do it. As long as all the marks are lined up with the belt it will work.

#16 Gloyale

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 10:09 AM

If you bought the belt at a dealership, the belt is right.



Nope. Last belt I bought was from the local dealer here. It was a ContiTech brand. Not the excact OEM. But a high quality belt for sure.

Only problem was the lines would always end up a half tooth off. The lines on the belt were not correct relative to the peaks and valleys of the pulley. It was impossible to seat the belt on even one pulley with the lines hitting the hash mark. Let alone all 3 at once.

I will say again, Ignore the white lines on the belt, go by the hash marks on the pulleys. When they are straight up all toghether, it right. The belt can look like a friggin zebra and that would still be true.

#17 soobyfan

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 11:09 AM

Here's the tooth count if you havn't seen it:

There should be 44 teeth between the mark on the crank sprocket and the mark on the pass. side cam pulley. There should be 40.5 teeth between the mark on the crank sprocket and the mark on the drivers side cam pulley.

I recently did a timing belt on a '96 EJ2.2, I bought the belt from a Subaru dealer and it was a Unitta brand, it has yellow marks on it and it lined up perfectly. However, as others have pointed out the tooth count between the sprockets is what matters.

#18 EVOthis

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 01:46 PM

thanks soobyfan i was trying to remember the tooth count when i made my post but couldnt.....:)

#19 ivans imports

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:16 PM

the mark on crank gear sets all the pistons at the same hight so there is no chance of interferance when installing belt u must use the marks on belt to set it who cares where tdc is there is no distributor all 3 lines go strait up dont use the arrows as they are for valve ajusting porposes not for timing

#20 davebugs

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:22 PM

Glad you found the search.

You realize this thread is 4 years old?

Apparently back then I even knew how to include pics!

#21 bheinen74

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:30 PM

You probably didn't use the right marks on the center crank. it is the mark on the back.

Same for cams you probably used wrong marks.




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