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HHO Conversion on my Legacy


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#1 Gravityman

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 12:03 PM

Hey Subaru freaks!

SUBARU THAT RUNS ON WATER!!! Well soon...

So, the basics. HHO is the gas created through the electrolysis of water or H2O. The electrolysis process breaks down the H2O in to 2 Hydrogen and 1 Oxygen molecules. The Hydrogen is formed on the Cathode or the negative electrode and the Oxygen is formed on the Anode or the positive electrode. The gas leaves the water combined as HHO. The gas is very combustible, believe me! SO....

I am currently testing and building a HHO system to setup on my 91 Legacy. The gas allows you to lean out your gasoline as the HHO gas supplements the gasoline with a hotter burning, more combustible, faster ignition, higher octane, cleaner burning, emissions reducing gas. With the ability to lean out the fuel you get better gas milage. Some claim to be able to run without a catalytic converter and be able to pass a smog test. Some have claimed a MPG increase above additional 30 MPGs.

Anywho, right now I am testing all different types of variables to be able to produce the gas the most efficiently. I will be building a setup as a supplemental system which should increase power and increase MPG's by at least 10+ MPG. Once I get the initial system setup built I will be building an EJ22 test bench like a DYNO bench where I will be able to control all variables, monitor gasoline and HHO input. I also plan on adding a MegaSquirt ECU to even further control the engine perameters and monitor how my system works to maximize fuel efficiency and hopefully power.

There have been completely successful attempts of running solely on HHO gas in small engines, IE lawnmower, weed eaters and generators. I will also be working on setting up an HHO generator which would be powered off of the generator which would in turn power the HHO generator all powered off of water. If this test is successful for me I plan on setting up the EJ22 or my EA81 to run on just HHO. If I can get this idea to become reality, WATER WILL BE MY FUEL!:eek:

So stay tuned, I will be bringing you my results, pictures and videos and maybe even the first Subaru to run off gasoline supplemented by HHO and hopefully one that runs completely off of HHO.:popcorn:

So goodbyezzz $4.00 a gallon what are you paying?

#2 nipper

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 12:59 PM

It must be srping, as this comes up every spring.

Do a search here and on the net, you will find that this is alot of nonsense, and even as a wielding gas it sucks.

nipper

#3 Reveeen

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 01:33 PM

So goodbye $4.00 a gallon what are you paying?

At the moment, $1.30.9 X 4.5= $5.89/gallon, price increase tomorrow.

#4 SuperNova

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 08:58 PM

It must be srping, as this comes up every spring.

Do a search here and on the net, you will find that this is alot of nonsense, and even as a wielding gas it sucks.

nipper


Sorry, but u might need to do a little more research. I am also in the finishing stages of building a HHO setup for my EA81 Hatch with plans of marketing. This definately does work and the HHO gas torch is bad a**.

#5 SuperNova

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 09:02 PM

I cant wait to see some pics and video from your setup. Are you using plates or tubes? 12v? What is the total surface area of your cell? How many cells (pos+neg plates or tubes) are you using? Sorry to ask so many questions, im very interested. I have alot more questions also. And if you have any questions of your own feel free to ask, my cell is about to get installed in the car.

#6 Gravityman

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 09:20 PM

Thats cool, criticism is fine, I expected some as I once did the same. I have already built a small scale test and it does actually produce hydrogen. If I am barking up the stump of an old cut tree at an imaginary squirel, I guess I will find that out once the mist clears and then I will see for myself. But only then if it does not work i will have the proof to show others that it does not work.

Running on pure hydrogen alone is obviously a long shot and would be the greatest outcome from these tests. I am mearly trying to improve fuel economy, reduce emissions and hopefully net a small power gain. If you guys want to keep paying $4-$6 per gallon, go right ahead but dont be fooled that gasoline is the only combustable fuel out there that will burn properly in a gasoline engine.

I may eat my words later but either way I am going to give it a try.

#7 Gravityman

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 09:33 PM

I cant wait to see some pics and video from your setup. Are you using plates or tubes? 12v? What is the total surface area of your cell? How many cells (pos+neg plates or tubes) are you using? Sorry to ask so many questions, im very interested. I have alot more questions also. And if you have any questions of your own feel free to ask, my cell is about to get installed in the car.


I am still currently experimenting with different forms of stainless to see what produces the gas the most efficiently. My friends have built the ones out of 304 stainless outlet covers from lowes, another out of a 3/4" bolt in the center of a stainless tube. I am actually trying a little different setup. I am trying threaded rods, which have been working great! I am at 1/30th scale and producing a good amount of gas right now.

I have a 0-50vdc 0-30amp power supply that is completely adjustable, which I normally keep at about 12-15vdc and 15amps. Tomorrow when I have more time (need to go to work) I will post a pic of my plan.

In the mean time what does yours look like? plates, tubes? what are you using for you container? what are you using as an electrolyte? What grade metal are you using? Distilled or tap water?

I will be testing a bunch of electrolytes that can be find at any old store.

If anyone has done this PLEASE FEEL FREE TO POST RESULTS, PICS, VIDEOS, whatever!!! The more we know the better off we will be.

BTW thanks for the support!

#8 SuperNova

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 12:23 AM

yes, i totally understand the criticism. I get it all the time. My cell uses 316 stainless plates, and 4 '' pvc as the case. Tap water as the electrolyte. What do u mean electrolytes from a store? Bottled water? The cell can pretty much use any clean water. It doesnt need to be distilled, we've found from our testing that hot water gases more than cold water. There is actually quite a bit of videos on youtube with good info. Obviously u need to sort out the bullsh*t videos from the ones that actually work. The cell we made uses 12v and draws 8amps. Also when constructing your cell, the gap between the plates matters, less gap equals more gas. Running on straight HHO is possible and has been done before. And using HHO as a booster from what i have read and seen will for sure increase your MPG, but as for power gains there has been no reports of any. Dont think anyone with HHO has been dynoed before. But it would make sense to get some kind of gain, the hydrogen creates a more complete burn in the cylinder.

#9 The Beast I Drive

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 12:32 AM

a little off topic, but what ever happened to the Hyperbolic Twin Turbo ER27 build?


Maybe make it the test mule...

#10 nipper

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 12:41 AM

Eh what do i know. I only worked with a hydrogen fuel cell company for five years as thier R N D enegineer and production and QA engineer.

BUt thats ok, everyone needs a hobby.


nipper

#11 ferox

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 01:20 AM

Originally posted by Gravityman

...the HHO gas supplements the gasoline with a hotter burning, more combustible, faster ignition, higher octane, cleaner burning, emissions reducing gas.


What do you mean by higher octane? It's great that you have such ambitious plans. Are you generating your hydrogen with solar or wind power? I don't want to sound like a Doubting Thomas, and my questions aren't rhetorical, but if you are making hydrogen from household current, then water will not really be your fuel, it will most likely be coal. How much hydrogen per gallon of gas are you planning on using? Do you have to do anything to your valves or valve seats? I could probably figure out sixteen more questions, but I'll spare everyone. I am honestly curious about your project, keep us posted, good luck, be careful, hydrogen is potentially very dangerous.

#12 Gravityman

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:54 AM

What do you mean by higher octane? It's great that you have such ambitious plans. Are you generating your hydrogen with solar or wind power? I don't want to sound like a Doubting Thomas, and my questions aren't rhetorical, but if you are making hydrogen from household current, then water will not really be your fuel, it will most likely be coal. How much hydrogen per gallon of gas are you planning on using? Do you have to do anything to your valves or valve seats? I could probably figure out sixteen more questions, but I'll spare everyone. I am honestly curious about your project, keep us posted, good luck, be careful, hydrogen is potentially very dangerous.


For initial testing I would be using household electricity yes, however once the system is installed on a car the battery and alt will be the power source.

As far as octane goes PER WIKI "Hydrogen represents a paradox. As a fuel outright, it has low knock resistance[2][3], due to its low ignition energy (primarily due to its low dissociation energy) and extremely high flame speed. However, as a minor blending component (i.e., a bi-fuel vehicle), hydrogen raises overall knock resistance. Flame speed is limited by the rest of the component species; hydrogen may reduce knock by contributing its high thermal conductivity. These traits are highly desirable in rocket engines, but undesirable in Otto-cycle engines."

The hydro/gas ratio is still yet to be determined until I can get a full system setup. And as far as valves go, not sure yet. What I want to do is tear down my engine, inspect it with pictures, reassemble it use it as a test bench to adjust all variables and then reinspect after a considerable amount of tests. Hopefully it will last my abuse.

I appriciate you questions and comments.

#13 Gravityman

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 07:12 AM

yes, i totally understand the criticism. I get it all the time. My cell uses 316 stainless plates, and 4 '' pvc as the case. Tap water as the electrolyte. What do u mean electrolytes from a store? Bottled water? The cell can pretty much use any clean water. It doesnt need to be distilled, we've found from our testing that hot water gases more than cold water. There is actually quite a bit of videos on youtube with good info. Obviously u need to sort out the bullsh*t videos from the ones that actually work. The cell we made uses 12v and draws 8amps. Also when constructing your cell, the gap between the plates matters, less gap equals more gas. Running on straight HHO is possible and has been done before. And using HHO as a booster from what i have read and seen will for sure increase your MPG, but as for power gains there has been no reports of any. Dont think anyone with HHO has been dynoed before. But it would make sense to get some kind of gain, the hydrogen creates a more complete burn in the cylinder.


Does your water turn brown after a while of use? The reason for distilled is that there are no minerals or particals in the water except for the electrolytes that are added, ie baking soda... There are many different types of electrolytes out there all over. Baking soda seems to be used the most mainly due to cost and the easeabiliy to obtain.

Plate spacing and surface area- I will also be running tests on these factors to validate the increased production of gas, temp over time, amp draw and a few other variables.

As far as the water temp goes, from what I have experianced you are correct about the temp, Higher temp more gas because the temp will reduce water tension and increase amperage. The problem you end up having is thermal overload. If you run the generator for too long the heat will start to spike and then the amp's will increase to overload and if your system is fused, the fuse will blow. Have you ran your generator for longer then an hour? It will get very hot. There needs to be a temperature regulator for the system to prevent heat soak.

As far as the dyno thing goes... I have a G-tech pro RR, it is pretty accurate for measuring power. I plan on doing a long set of pulls on this before and after the HHO system install to validate any power increase or loss, not just the "hey it feels like I added a turbo".

Thanks for the Q's keep them coming.

#14 Gravityman

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 07:57 AM

Eh what do i know. I only worked with a hydrogen fuel cell company for five years as thier R N D enegineer and production and QA engineer.

BUt thats ok, everyone needs a hobby.


nipper


Thats cool Nip, so instead of being the stick in the mud why dont you help the cause? Do you really think that this whole process is really completely worthless? Why, other then "this is alot of nonsense"?

I am tired of the 10cent fuel hike every other day, and ever since katrina the prices never dropped back to a normal price. The average retail price for gas prior to Katrina was about $2.50 (acceptable, it still flowed with inflation). Post Katrina it jumped to nearly $3.04 per gallon. Since, it dropped a few cents but increased exponentially. Now we are paying about $3.70 per gallon and the rate of inflation is not following the way it has in the past.

I am DAMB tired of this gas war, I am military and dont get payed much, but I am going to do the best I can to counter this BS. I know I cant save the world myself but I can at least try to change mine and anyone willing to help me or support me.

I am still working on the Hyperbolic TT ER27. If my test come out positive and this isnt just a big crock of crap that I am throwing my money at then I most likely will supplement my turbo project with hydrogen. I will have to get through alot of testing and I would like to at some point try to test with a turbo or high compression to see how well it works. I have see on youtube a turbo running with it as a supplement, but I am looking for efficency and overall reliablity.

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I am sorry Nipper for the crazed rant, it was not focused at you. My sincerest appoligies!:drunk:

#15 civilpd

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 10:39 AM

I sort of skimmed over the previous entries so I may have missed some verbal jousting.
With my hands over my ears chanting some meaningless montra, I am going to build Smack's Booster and put it on my 87 GL-10 Turb Wagon.

Hydroxy boosters are selling all over the web for $100 to $1500. http://www.brownsgas...sfuelsaver.html

If there is anything to it I am going to find out.
http://www.free-ener...k/Chapter10.pdf

There is a very small sentence somehwere in the .pdf article link above that is easy to miss but may be the deciding factor. It says that if you have a computer in your vehicle with a fuel management system then the computer will adjust and negate any possible improvment.

One guy that says he has a couple of these in his vehicles says that the booster in his old cadillac provides much more improvement in gas mileage than it does in his 2005 Toyota Tundra. That disturbed me until I read the part about computers adjusting the fuel mgmt. Fortunately the article claims that one can trick the computer on your vehicle.

I will not go into any detail because if I did it would most likely be wrong since I would not know what I am talking about. The site above provides cook book instructions on how to make one and there is also one somewhere that shows the install with a bracket and stuff.

I wanted directions on how to slap one together so I could judge for myself to see if it works; the link above is it. They claim no modification to the vehicle and it can be removed easily enough even for lease cars. ( I do not know about the computer mod I am ignorantly and beligerantly moving forward with my hairbrained scheme.)

The R&D guy may be correct to some extent but I suspect he is looking at the subject from an extremely complicated point of view and from a scientific stance is probably correct. But even so, there are some things I must find out for myself and this is one of them.

So my point in writing this is for those of you like the orginator of the thread and myelf who are intrigued by the possibility and to provide the above links for you.

#16 civilpd

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 10:57 AM

Addendum to my last post:
Last time I looked at the link it was 17 pages long, this time, the link I gave you above, is 140 or something. Just look at the first pages until shortly after the picture of the motorcycle where it starts other boosters. the rest of that stuff gets more and more technical and is just plain confusing. The simple slap it together to see if it works system is in the first few pages. If you can print or save a copy I suggest you do since I have heard these links go missing from time to time... whoooeeeoooo

#17 civilpd

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 10:58 AM

Addendum to my last post:
Last time I looked at the link it was 17 pages long, this time, the link I gave you above, is 140 or something. Just look at the first pages until shortly after the picture of the motorcycle where it starts other boosters. the rest of that stuff gets more and more technical and is just plain confusing. The simple slap it together to see if it works system is in the first few pages. If you can print or save a copy I suggest you do since I have heard these links go missing from time to time...whoooeeeoooo

#18 s'ko

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 04:20 PM

I sort of skimmed over the previous entries so I may have missed some verbal jousting.
With my hands over my ears chanting some meaningless montra, I am going to build Smack's Booster and put it on my 87 GL-10 Turb Wagon.

Hydroxy boosters are selling all over the web for $100 to $1500. http://www.brownsgas...sfuelsaver.html

If there is anything to it I am going to find out.
http://www.free-ener...k/Chapter10.pdf

There is a very small sentence somehwere in the .pdf article link above that is easy to miss but may be the deciding factor. It says that if you have a computer in your vehicle with a fuel management system then the computer will adjust and negate any possible improvment.

One guy that says he has a couple of these in his vehicles says that the booster in his old cadillac provides much more improvement in gas mileage than it does in his 2005 Toyota Tundra. That disturbed me until I read the part about computers adjusting the fuel mgmt. Fortunately the article claims that one can trick the computer on your vehicle.

I will not go into any detail because if I did it would most likely be wrong since I would not know what I am talking about. The site above provides cook book instructions on how to make one and there is also one somewhere that shows the install with a bracket and stuff.

I wanted directions on how to slap one together so I could judge for myself to see if it works; the link above is it. They claim no modification to the vehicle and it can be removed easily enough even for lease cars. ( I do not know about the computer mod I am ignorantly and beligerantly moving forward with my hairbrained scheme.)

The R&D guy may be correct to some extent but I suspect he is looking at the subject from an extremely complicated point of view and from a scientific stance is probably correct. But even so, there are some things I must find out for myself and this is one of them.

So my point in writing this is for those of you like the orginator of the thread and myelf who are intrigued by the possibility and to provide the above links for you.


I downloaded the PDF. Interesting read.

I am thinking of making the Smack Booster and hooking it up to the BRAT. Will see if there are any differences in mileage.

BW

#19 SuperNova

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 04:40 PM

Does your water turn brown after a while of use? The reason for distilled is that there are no minerals or particals in the water except for the electrolytes that are added, ie baking soda... There are many different types of electrolytes out there all over. Baking soda seems to be used the most mainly due to cost and the easeabiliy to obtain.

Plate spacing and surface area- I will also be running tests on these factors to validate the increased production of gas, temp over time, amp draw and a few other variables.

As far as the water temp goes, from what I have experianced you are correct about the temp, Higher temp more gas because the temp will reduce water tension and increase amperage. The problem you end up having is thermal overload. If you run the generator for too long the heat will start to spike and then the amp's will increase to overload and if your system is fused, the fuse will blow. Have you ran your generator for longer then an hour? It will get very hot. There needs to be a temperature regulator for the system to prevent heat soak.

As far as the dyno thing goes... I have a G-tech pro RR, it is pretty accurate for measuring power. I plan on doing a long set of pulls on this before and after the HHO system install to validate any power increase or loss, not just the "hey it feels like I added a turbo".

Thanks for the Q's keep them coming.


Yes the water does turn brown after a while. It is basically the oxidation of the plates. From alot of the reading i have done, the plates need to be broke-in. Turn the cell on for a while, monitor temp, turn it off, turn it back on, change the water. Over and over, eventually the brown sludge on top will minimize and the plates will be conditioned and actually produce more gas.

With the cell a friend and i have come up with, we dont have heating issues. We did with the first smaller cells, but the latest cell is big enough and has the water capacity to keep itself at a constant temp once it has warmed up. We have ran the cell for several hours without overheating. We have also considered the idea of a dry-sump cell basically, having another bottle/container that recirculates water though the cell. Using a dry-sump would also decrease the overall size of the cell itself.

#20 kiwi subbie

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 05:44 AM

an chch man made his mini run on water. a very smart guy he was.

#21 s'ko

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 05:08 PM

read some more of the PDF.

I thing that I thought of was that you could use the exhaust system to produce more distilled water for you.

Make some sort of a boiler near the exhaust or wrap the exhaust around the boiler. Then have the steam and water vapor travel through a coiled tube and the distilled water collects into another container. That way you will always have distilled water to use in the electrolyzer.

#22 kay95

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 12:27 PM

I dont see how you can run on only HHO gas. Well I can if you make and compress it in a tank then put it in your car. Other than that the engine has to run on something to keep it going and if you just generated and burned HHO gas only that would break a law of physics. Where do you get the energy to drive the car if it has to go right back to the generator for the HHO cell. For this to happen it would be a perpetual energy machine. Physics says energy/matter cant be created or destroyed only changed. Only way it would work is if there was a nuclear reaction someplace.


This should work for a good boost of mileage though. Most of the time the alternator is making power and nothing really uses it. I was looking into making or buying one to see how it works too. There have been alot of people getting be milage with these.

#23 s'ko

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 04:06 PM

I dont see how you can run on only HHO gas. Well I can if you make and compress it in a tank then put it in your car. Other than that the engine has to run on something to keep it going and if you just generated and burned HHO gas only that would break a law of physics. Where do you get the energy to drive the car if it has to go right back to the generator for the HHO cell. For this to happen it would be a perpetual energy machine. Physics says energy/matter cant be created or destroyed only changed. Only way it would work is if there was a nuclear reaction someplace.


This should work for a good boost of mileage though. Most of the time the alternator is making power and nothing really uses it. I was looking into making or buying one to see how it works too. There have been alot of people getting be milage with these.


Read the PDF file and you will see that about 2/3s in there are plans to make a 100 cell electrolyzer. It would produce 100 liters per minute of HHO. This would replace the gasoline demands of the car. The main problem with running pure HHO is that the timing would be fubar. Since HHO is very combustible, it would fire immediately when the spark hits it. Most gasoline engines have the spark a few degrees before TDC.

The complexity of making the 100 cell unit is the biggest deterent. Other than that, the concept is sound. The hard part is doing it with an engine built to use gasoline mist. Like Gravityman was talking in the beginning use some sort of spark control so that it will spark when it is at or just past TDC.

#24 LPGsuperchargedBrumby

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 04:03 AM

how much power would it take to run an electrolizer that can produce 100 liters a minute?

#25 WoodsWagon

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 10:30 AM

Most of the time the alternator is making power and nothing really uses it.


Not true actually, that's what the voltage regulator controlls. The amount of current going throught the field windings in the rotor is varied to match the needed output of the alt. So most of the time the alt's turning resistance and horsepower use is much less than when it's put under full electrical load. So when you put a huge electrical load on the system, like a HHO generator, then the alt will run at 100% and take a lot more power from the engine. Most alt's are not rated for 100% duty either, so they will cook pretty quick.




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