MT - Shifting into first Problem

[p3pppx]

I have a 5spd MT '00 Outback and find that down shifting to first is difficult, until the car comes to a complete stop.

 

I don't remember this happening when we first got the car (3 months ago). I think I started noticing it as the weather got colder?

 

Could this be a clutch problem or fluids?

 

Patrick.

[Subie Gal]

subaru thing

 

1st gear is just to get you going....

no need to be in first unless you're coming from a dead stop.

 

I dont even try to get into 1st in my 01 2.5RS unless the car IS stopped...

 

however, my WRX is much easier to shift into first since i switched to Redline heavyduty shockproof (very slippy/slimey) gear oil.

 

you could try a synthetic gear oil...

but remember that the way the car is designed, you shouldnt have to go into 1st unless at a stop.

 

heck, i even start in 2nd occassionally

 

and yes, does seem to get notchier over time.

 

hope this is helpful

Jamie

[Setright]

There is more inertia in the transmission compared to most other cars, because of the four-wheel-drive.

 

The cold weather will make it harder, but if you have been forcing the stick into first at speed for three months, then the synchroniser rings may have been scarred and hence make the gearbox even more recalcitrant.

 

However, I doubt it's damaged to any serious extent - it IS a Sube after all.

 

 

You might want to try "double de-clutching" as you move down through the gears. As the stick passes throught the neutral position, keep it there, lift the clutch, tap the accelerator, press the clutch and move the stick to the desired gear.

 

The Legacy pedals are actually perfectly spaced for this. You can rest the left side of your right foot on the brake as you slow down and rolling your foot around the ankle tap the gas without releasing the brake. It takes practice, but it is VERY satisfying once you learn to match engine revs to gears and the stick just glides around the gates

 

Happy New Year!

[meep]

"There is more inertia in the transmission compared to most other cars, because of the four-wheel-drive."

 

Well, yes and no. The trans capacity is matched to motor output, not # of driven wheels. The wheel side of the gearing is always spinning with the wheels-- the intertia you're speaking of is on the engine side. Clutch and axle and powered gear side inertia must be overcome by the synchros, but 2x4 or 4x4 makes no difference here.

 

ALL five sets of gears are ALWAYS engaged and in motion (except at 0 mph). A gear is selected by sliding an engagement ring between the gear and axle. This ring is what would grind, if the synchro was shot. The synchro uses friction to match axle-gear speed before the ring slides in place. If the rpms don't match, it won't let the ring slide in.

 

At 15 mph, first gear is spinning at the equivalent engine speed of 3 grand. That means, if the clutch goes in and the engine side axle slows to 0 rpm, forcing into 1st gear requires the syncro to spin that axle and connected components to 3000 rpm. That's alot of work for a piece of rubber.

 

This is why the "double-de-clutching" method mentioned above can help. It uses revved engine rpm to get those parts up to speed first, prefferably slightly over, so the syncro can catch it as it passes the same rpm on its way down. This "heel-toe" shifting is good for any gear, and especially the lower ones during downshifts.

 

It is generally not reccomended to enter first while moving. may even mention it in the owner's manual.

 

Mike

[Setright]

Sorry Mike, just trying to keep things simple. There is more inertia, because flywheel, clutch, and cogwheels are stronger/heavier since the transmission is the only place to soak up excess power - wheelspin is rarely an option. I agree - since it's true - that the propshaft, drive axles, and all that are disconnected when the clutch pedal is down.

 

The synchro ring WILL allow mismatched gears to be engaged - accompanied by a horrible noise. VERY few gearboxes have synchros that block mismatched gears. It requires an extra ring to do this.

 

The actual synchronising is performed by the conical part of the synchro ring that contacts BEFORE the selector teeth. There is no rubber involved.

[cookie]

as you roll to a stop you will do the tranny and yourself a favor.

You can feel your way down through the gears, or up for that matter.

As you approach the proper syncronised speeds shift out of gear and start to apply a tiny bit of pressure to the correct gear slot.

When the speeds are matched you will feel resitance ease and it will slide right in.

This is how we used to shift the big non syncro trannies in trucks and busses.

You don't really need to double declutch on a syncro tranny, but it could save you some day if you know how.

It has taken me years to mostly drop double clutching as it became such a habit in ten years on the road.

[Lesbaru]

I'm an old fart, but I remember being taught NEVER to shift any car into first unless I was at a dead stop. If the car was moving, even a tiny bit, the thing to do was to shift down into 2nd.

 

Never even tried shoving either of my Subies into 1st while the wheels were rolling.

[Setright]

I don't like lugging my Sube away from a crawl in second gear, so I always drop into first. It's just a question of giving it enough revs

[meep]

Yes on both accounts. It can be hurtful (unfriendly) to ram into 1st while in motion. It can also be done very nicely if you rev-match first. It was the only way to do it in our 97. The newer ones are a bit more forgiving. Some other cars (we have a miata in the stable) are even more finicky, despite rev-matching.

 

Oops-- yeah, they're metal-- I was trying to write around that "rubbery" feel.

 

OTOH, I don't think the engine side of the trans is any beefier due to the 4wd. In earlier soobs they weren't. You also would not find a beefier trans in a GM, daimlerchrysler, or any other make, where the only change is the added xfer case off the tailshaft. My manuals on earlier soobs certainly didn't specify a difference. Admittedly I could be wrong...

 

:-)

 

Mike

[cookie]

Think of two gears approaching each other. If they are not alligned correctly you will have to force them together. The syncros are friction clutches that will cause the two gears to match speeds and to turn enough to spin till they line up.

On old non syncro first transmissions the never shift until a stop was a good idea for the average person.

I have rebuilt many a tranny with big chunks out of first gear form injudicious shifting into first while moving.

What I would like you to try is select first as the car just stops. perhaps half a mile an hour. Just hold it there with light pressure till it slips in itself when the gears align.

Even on these cars sometimes it may be necessay to let the clutch out in neutral to spin the gears before you select first from a stop while cold.

You can force it in and it will go but you are causeing a bit more wear.

[Setright]

Cookie, the cog teeth are in constant mesh. The synchro teeth make the grinding noise.

[DerFahrer]

I honestly think some of you are too hard on your gearboxes. I do admit that when I drive (or abuse ) the Toyota truck at work, I slam that thing into gear as fast as I can, and RARELY grind gears. But I know that I simply can't do that with my Subarus. I have adjusted my driving style to suit their slow synchronization.

 

And double-clutching does wonders as Setright said. Let's say you're going about 10 mph. It will take an immense amount of time of putting pressure on the synchro to get it up to speed before you can engage the gear. So just put it in Neutral, pop the gas to about 2500 rpm, and I'll bet the tranny slides smooth as butter into 1st gear. Then you can haul rump roast in 1st gear instead of bogging in 2nd. :cool:

 

By doing this, you're basically overriding the synchros. You're doing the speed-matching yourself.

 

It does take practice, but I was forced to learn how when I put that Redline garbage in my tranny. 4th gear would not engage without grinding unless I double-clutched. Now I use el cheapo Castrol 80W90 dino and have not ground a gear since.

[cookie]

since I have never had a Subaru transmission apart I will trust you that it would be syncro teeth grinding in first. There are several ways these can work and if that is what Subaru has chosen for first gear so be it.

This does not change the fact that if one selects first in that instant before the car stops it will not grind or squeal and be easier on the components.

All of us have our opions based on waht we were taught to do when we learned to drive.

The first way I was taught was exactly what Lesbaru was taught.

Later when I was trained to drive heavy vehicles I was taught the other technique and it worked well enough that I changed my ways.

That s my story and I'm sticking to it.

hope you all had a good new year and that Alias is not still stuck in the snow.

[cookie]

a number of my friends are using the Resline Jamie mentions in thier racing cars.

Everyone I know who has used it loves it and reports easier shifting, and in one case in a a BMW that was freezing when relly hot it cured the problem.

[Setright]

Well Cookie, thanks for the confidence, but it's a fact of gearbox theory, not something peculiar to Subaru.

All the gears are in constant mesh, expect reverse, which is straight cut for strength - and that lovely whine - and has a tendency to clunk cog teeth as you select it.

 

Synchro rings lock the chosen cog to the input shaft, while the rest rotate freely.

[Setright]

Ta-dahhh:

 

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission4.htm

[cookie]

I have seen them work. That or couplings that lock the shaft, or replceable brass rings.

My favorite syncronisers were the relaceable rings as they tended to be much cheaper to repair.

But the point is the same, regardless of what type of device is used.

Try it you'll like it.

[Setright]

Brass rings in my 5MT.

[Guest 98legacy]

When I changed the tranny oil on my Legacy I couldn't get the recommended stuff easily as dealers are a bit thin on the ground in the UK. So I got a near (and cheap) alternative.

 

It was OK for 4 - 5k miles then quite suddenly engaging 3rd from up or down became difficult. I thought I had wrecked the synchros on 3rd.

 

However a visit to the dealer for a can of the proper oil performed the required miracle and its been fine since for the last 17k.

 

So make sure whoever changed the tranny oil last put the right stuff in.

[frag]

Originally posted by Setright

All the gears are in constant mesh, except reverse, which is straight cut for strength

Just a detail and for the sake of discussion, but I think reverse is straight cut because it's a less costly technique and that one does'nt use it long enough for the whine to be objectionable. It might be stronger as a side benefit but strenght seems to be pointless for reverse.

Or maybe I'm not getting myself is deep enough trouble to have use for a strong reverse...

[Setright]

Well, reverse takes a bashing during the actual selection, so the strength is relevant.

 

Also, the tiny axle that swings the third cog into place to make reverse happen, has no support on the ends. Therefore the axial force created by diagonal cut teeth would stress the shift linkage and have a tendency to pop it out of gear.

 

Andre Citroen came up with the fabulous idea of cutting teeth diagonally in two separate sections, and opposite angles, thereby eliminating the axial force....and giving the firm it's logo!

[1 Lucky Texan]

That Andre Citroen - what a character, I once saw a filmstrip from back in the 30s (IIRC) where he was driving a coupla half tracks around the world, they disassebled them in several places and carted the pieces on horse back and stuff - had to have parts shipped around the world at times. crazy

[frag]

Thanks for the explanation Setrright (a name is a name is a name...).

You seem to know a lot about transmissions.

Will remember that if I ever have to open mine. Did this actually with my first car a long time ago - an Austin !800 front wheel drive - but I think I was lucky then to make a successful repair.

Have a happy new year!