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loyale lacking power????


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25 replies to this topic

#1 scoooobie_du88

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 11:23 PM

OK...so I just had my 91 loyale in the shop...found out my timing was something to the effect of 24 degrees retarded...that got fixed...it runs better, however, it's still not as powerful as it should be.

Sometimes when i take off in first..it has trouble initially going....like the emergency brake is on or something...It's confusing me..i don't get it. everything is hooked up that should be...except one vacumm line that runs across the top of the fire wall...but i honestly believe that's nothing(i'll get a pic if you want one) But other than that everything is hooked up.

It also stalls sometimes when i come to a stop...it seems to do it more when the car has been running for a while...I don't think it's my shifting, however i could be wrong...i'll pay more attention...if it still stalls what do you think it could be? It doesn't do it all of the time...just sometimes...and it does it when i'm trying to park...maybe just a coincidence...idk.

Any suggestions??? All help would be GREATLY appreciated

***I also just bought a new coil...haven't had a chance to put it on yet...will get to that tomorrow and will update everybody to let you know if it helps or not.

#2 grossgary

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 07:07 AM

i wouldn't install the coil unless it's a Subaru OEM coil. aftermarket coils tend to cause a lot of problems and don't solve any.

as for your power issues, i'd definitely check those vaccuum lines out. EA82's are very sensitive to vacuum leaks...well a lot of cars are i suppose. i've always found it odd that some EA's will stall with the oil cap removed.

EA82 idle control stuff tends to cause problems too, but i've never had much time fixing those.

check engine light?
mileage?
last tune up?
any parts ever replaced on it?

#3 McDave

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 07:40 AM

Timing was 24 degrees retarded? Sounds like the left timing belt is a tooth off.

#4 zyewdall

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 10:46 PM

Timing was 24 degrees retarded? Sounds like the left timing belt is a tooth off.


That's what I was going to suggest too.... if the timing belt is a tooth off, the distributor will be wildly out of wack.... and even though you've fixed it now, it's possible that the valves are still not timed right wrt to the pistons on that side

#5 scoooobie_du88

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 10:31 PM

i wouldn't install the coil unless it's a Subaru OEM coil. aftermarket coils tend to cause a lot of problems and don't solve any.

as for your power issues, i'd definitely check those vaccuum lines out. EA82's are very sensitive to vacuum leaks...well a lot of cars are i suppose. i've always found it odd that some EA's will stall with the oil cap removed.

EA82 idle control stuff tends to cause problems too, but i've never had much time fixing those.

check engine light?
mileage?
last tune up?
any parts ever replaced on it?

no check engine light on...mileage is a little over 197,000. i have brand new spark plugs and wires...and i've replaced the heads(cracked valve seats in the set that came on the car when bought), the intake mani...and that's it engine wise....just some ball joints.

#6 scoooobie_du88

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 10:33 PM

Timing was 24 degrees retarded? Sounds like the left timing belt is a tooth off.

The timing was fixed in a shop so i'm not to sure...my bf would have to check it..he's the one that did it.

I'm kinda low on gas, and when i go around corners, mainly to the right...the car stalls...so i'm gonna put some new gas in(been siting for more than a year) and see if that helps at all.

#7 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 12:02 AM

1. The EA82's aren't powerful to begin with. 90 HP in throttle-body injection trim as your's is.

2. That said, they aren't particularly scary to drive - even at a mere 90 HP they generally go pretty well except on long steep grades. Shifting near or at redline is not generally a problem for them and can improve the feel of driving them a bit.

3. Strange things are afoot with your timing indeed. "24 degrees retarded" likely would not run at all, or very, very poorly if it did. Stock timing for the SPFI (throttle body injection) EA82 is 20 degrees BTDC. 24 degrees of additional retard would put it at 44 degrees BTDC - I highly doubt the thing would run at all although I've never tried.

4. The hesitation could be several things. But it you are not receiving any kind of malfunction codes from the computer, and with the timing anticts that seem to be occuring I would be highly suspect of the valve timing itself. It could be anything ranging from a loose belt to the crank belt sprockets being on in the wrong order or a combination of these or other ailments. I have personally experienced a highly annoying hesitation on an SPFI EA82 that didn't resolve itself till the belt actually snapped and I installed new one's - hesitation magically gone due to new, tight, properly installed belts. One of the drawbacks of buying old cars with unknown maintenance.

So.... with all that layed out I would be very temped to remove the outer belt covers to inspect the timing and check the condition of the belts and their tension. It's a relatively simple procedure that shouldnt take more than about 30 minutes - maybe a bit more if you have never done it.

GD

#8 McDave

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 06:36 AM

3. Strange things are afoot with your timing indeed. "24 degrees retarded" likely would not run at all, or very, very poorly if it did. Stock timing for the SPFI (throttle body injection) EA82 is 20 degrees BTDC. 24 degrees of additional retard would put it at 44 degrees BTDC - I highly doubt the thing would run at all although I've never tried.


GD


That was my original thought too then decided it was set at 4 degrees ATDC for a total of 24 retarded.

Good tip on the crank gears possibly being switched or the belts loose/stretched. I've been fighting a hesitation on my car too and had planned on checking the belt timing. Will add those checks to the list too.

#9 scoooobie_du88

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 01:04 PM

1. The EA82's aren't powerful to begin with. 90 HP in throttle-body injection trim as your's is.

2. That said, they aren't particularly scary to drive - even at a mere 90 HP they generally go pretty well except on long steep grades. Shifting near or at redline is not generally a problem for them and can improve the feel of driving them a bit.

3. Strange things are afoot with your timing indeed. "24 degrees retarded" likely would not run at all, or very, very poorly if it did. Stock timing for the SPFI (throttle body injection) EA82 is 20 degrees BTDC. 24 degrees of additional retard would put it at 44 degrees BTDC - I highly doubt the thing would run at all although I've never tried.

4. The hesitation could be several things. But it you are not receiving any kind of malfunction codes from the computer, and with the timing anticts that seem to be occuring I would be highly suspect of the valve timing itself. It could be anything ranging from a loose belt to the crank belt sprockets being on in the wrong order or a combination of these or other ailments. I have personally experienced a highly annoying hesitation on an SPFI EA82 that didn't resolve itself till the belt actually snapped and I installed new one's - hesitation magically gone due to new, tight, properly installed belts. One of the drawbacks of buying old cars with unknown maintenance.

So.... with all that layed out I would be very temped to remove the outer belt covers to inspect the timing and check the condition of the belts and their tension. It's a relatively simple procedure that shouldnt take more than about 30 minutes - maybe a bit more if you have never done it.

GD

yeah i knew it didn't really have much power...but this is jut weird. only happens sometimes...and only in first gear...i think it happened in 2nd once...but not since then.

yeah the guy i bought it from i have a feeling it wasn't taken very well care of...this is my first (own) car...and so it's kinda in me to get it running and keep it running, I know that subs are reliable..once they're running right. That's just the point i'm trying to get it to...you know? I'll see what anthony thinks...cause I was at the muffler shop the other day and the guy said it sounded like only two of the valves were working right or something like that.

#10 Flowmastered87GL

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 04:25 PM

just throwing this out there too.... my GL was terribly slow when the catalytic converter clogged. Once it exploded the power came back :banana: .

Not saying this is the issue, but it is a possibility. I would more likely lean toward something along the lines of BOTH sides of the engine being in proper time with everything.

#11 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 06:42 PM

yeah i knew it didn't really have much power...but this is jut weird. only happens sometimes...and only in first gear...i think it happened in 2nd once...but not since then.


That's typical of loose timing belts. Sometimes the timing jumps around, and sometimes it doesn't. Just the nature of harmonics and rubber. That's exactly what the 87 coupe I have did - till I did a timing belt job. Tried everything - even suspected the automatic tranny. Had it flushed and I adjusted the bands etc. It was the valve timing all along. The skinny EA82 belts are stretchy enough as it is - throw in some slop (they don't have hydraulic tensioners, so as the belts age and stretch they just get loose) and you have seriously random timing.

GD

#12 scoooobie_du88

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 07:42 PM

just throwing this out there too.... my GL was terribly slow when the catalytic converter clogged. Once it exploded the power came back :banana: .

Not saying this is the issue, but it is a possibility. I would more likely lean toward something along the lines of BOTH sides of the engine being in proper time with everything.


We actually took the one off towards the front...it sounds like it has cams haha...gonna try and get a pipe welded there...won't pass inspection otherwise

#13 scoooobie_du88

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 05:08 PM

well it was all a moot point...got the car to the shop for inspection...and on the way home...threw a rod :-(

#14 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:47 PM

well it was all a moot point...got the car to the shop for inspection...and on the way home...threw a rod :-(


You *sure* about that? It's quite rare. They basically always throw them out the top of the block - it's quite a mess when it happens, but I can count the number of times I've seen or heard of it on one hand.

It's generally related to very poor oil pressure.

GD

#15 scoooobie_du88

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 11:28 AM

You *sure* about that? It's quite rare. They basically always throw them out the top of the block - it's quite a mess when it happens, but I can count the number of times I've seen or heard of it on one hand.

It's generally related to very poor oil pressure.

GD

oh yea...definitely.

had just had the oil changed...everything was fine on the gauges.

#16 daeron

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 12:49 PM

Hate to sound incredibly morbid, but.. do you have any pictures??? this is a rare malady for the engine indeed, and well.. I'm morbid, I wanna see it!!

What are your plans with the car?? its such an easy vehicle to work on, if you want to learn the ins and outs of maintaining an automobile this is a relatively cheap and easy one to do so with for the first time.

#17 cole098

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 09:33 PM

Sorry to jump a thread but, I'm afraid my 1988 Ea82 wagon stick has the same problem, no power when pulling out in first gear, second has similar hesitation.

The car does not suffer from low idle and it never, ever stalls.

The only thing I do notice is I smell something burning, like the clutch was burning.

Now I have been driving stick for 20 years and have only ever burned out a clutch once and that was in a Nissan Truck that was stuck in 4 feet of snow years ago.

So Im not sure what is wrong with my car, the engine light works but does not come on as to say Hey I need attention.

So would all of you advise me to look at belts or something else ?
Now I have no clue how to tell if the belts are good, bad or in wrong.
Any Tips ????? Thanks Joe

#18 McDave

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 11:15 AM

Sorry to jump a thread but, I'm afraid my 1988 Ea82 wagon stick has the same problem, no power when pulling out in first gear, second has similar hesitation.

I've been battling this on my Loyale ever since I got it a couple months ago. I've finally got it figured out. I recently got my hands on another y-pipe/cat, gutted the cat, then installed it on my car. It did get a noticeable improvement in power but it still had the off-idle bog that lasted until the rpms got over 2400 rpms.

Having already checked everything else including tps, maf, cts, ecu, O2, fuel filter, pump, regulator, plugs, wires, coil, ground circuits, ad nausium, I concluded that either the injector wasn't flowing well, or there was carbon build-up on the back side of the intake valves. So yesterday I added a "Treats up to 20 gallons" bottle of Techron Injector Cleaner to the tank, filled it up with gas, and took it on a 150 mile trip.

Ho boy did that fix it! After about 25 miles I noticed it was pulling hills like it had the cruise control set, and it doesn't even have cruise! Pulling away from stops it has plenty of power now, and I can even get rubber if there's a little bit of gravel. :grin:

The 3AT transmission still upshifts too quickly, but at least it now has the power to go ahead and accelerate instead of bogging and forcing me to floor it or manually downshift.

I did go ahead and put my original y-pipe/cat back on today since the other one was real noisey, and it did lose some power. But it's still much better than it was before. I'll give it awhile to see if the Techron by chance cleans out the cat too, but if it doesn't I'll probably go ahead and buy another cat.

So the problem may be twofold. Injector partially restricted and not flowing well, and/or carbon buildup on the intake valves. The Techron took care of that. A restriction in the front cat may be hurting overall power too, and could even be the cause of the carbon build-up in the first place. I'll report back later if it clears up on it's own (doubtful), or if a new cat gives back some of the power I had with the gutted cat.

#19 cole098

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 01:04 AM

Where did you buy the techron injector cleaner ?

I have thought about Seafoaming me 88 Ea82 but I have no clue where a safe place is to dump it ?

Anybody have any thought on it ?

Joe

#20 McDave

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 05:59 AM

Where did you buy the techron injector cleaner ?


Any auto parts store.

I have thought about Seafoaming me 88 Ea82 but I have no clue where a safe place is to dump it ?

Anybody have any thought on it ?

Joe

I've never used it as I prefer gentler products like Techron in the gas and Marvel Mystery Oil in the oil.

#21 daeron

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 09:56 PM

screw gentle, seafoam is a godsend.

You suck a small quantity up through a vacuum line, then shut the car off and let it sit for 10 minutes, then go for a good hot run and watch everything burn away. You can also add it straight to the gas to get a fuel system clean out of it too.


I have yet to hear any story about the proper use of seafoam that had a bad ending.

#22 McDave

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 10:59 AM

screw gentle, seafoam is a godsend.

You suck a small quantity up through a vacuum line, then shut the car off and let it sit for 10 minutes, then go for a good hot run and watch everything burn away. You can also add it straight to the gas to get a fuel system clean out of it too.


I have yet to hear any story about the proper use of seafoam that had a bad ending.

I already replied in the other thread on Seafoam but since it applies here too, here goes.

The reason I prefer a 'gentler' treatment is because we are dealing with an older car here that may already have issues with a restricted cat.

Now I know Seafoam is perfectly compatable with cats but all the junk you'll be cleaning out of the engine could be too much for a marginal cat to handle all at once.

I agree Seafoam, or Techron in the gas tank would be a better, gentler solution than down the intake in this situation.

Now lets hear some results cole98!

#23 torxxx

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 02:17 PM

I'm goin with plugged up cats. I work at an exhuast shop and we've been seein a lot of the older subarus and even some of the newer ones with cats plugging up. easy way to test it, drill a hole in front of the cat and see if I get power back.

#24 cole098

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 03:57 PM

Looks like Thursday if it doesnt rain, my Godson and I are gonna mess with the EA82..

Gonna look at the belts as well as open up the Cat, and then use Seafoam and Techron.

Gonna seafoam the intake..

#25 McDave

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 07:53 AM

Looks like Thursday if it doesnt rain, my Godson and I are gonna mess with the EA82..

Gonna look at the belts as well as open up the Cat, and then use Seafoam and Techron.

Gonna seafoam the intake..

You might consider doing the Seafoam treatment before bolting the rear pipe back up. That way all the gunk ends up on the ground instead of in the rear cat.




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