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87 Brat-Crank, no start


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17 replies to this topic

#1 Jurrel

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 11:12 PM

I have a 1987 brat, just got the trans for it, put it together. It hasn't ran now in a year or two (According to the previous owner, I have never seen it run). when you try to start it, it cranks but doesn't start.
We have good spark at the plugs.

When you put a hand over the carb and turn the engine over, should you feel air coming out of the carb, when the car is not starting? Air is puffing out, I'm not sure if that's normal or if it means the cam in off 180 degrees (not up on carbs).

Also, the Fuel pump runs, but sickly, when 12V is applied directly to it. With a DVM on the car's end of the Fuel pump adapter, it was pulsing, but in mV not in Volts ever.. I assume this means the FPCU is bad, so do I just dump the whole thing directly to the battery, or can/should I just jump around the FPCU?

#2 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 01:04 AM

Fuel pump only runs when cranking. You should not jumper around the FPCU - it's a safety device to prevent you from being roasted alive in a crash. You could apply 12v directly to the pump for testing purposes though.

The cam can't be off 180 unless someone dissasembled the entire engine and installed it that way. They are gear driven.

You may have electrical gremlins in the fuel pump circuit but I highly doubt the FPCU is to blame.

GD

#3 Jurrel

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 02:31 AM

The FPCU only seems to have 12V on Run and start, and only then on a yellow and black wires. The second black and the blue-red that runs back to the Fuel pump are always 0.0.

After looking around the forums, I found a pic someone put up of their own FPCU, and mine is completely different. Mine appears to not have the relay in it. The center of mine is devoid of anything.

#4 Cougar

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 08:50 AM

Since you stated that air is backing out the carb I suspect the valve timing is wrong. The intake valve isn't closing when it should be and air is being pushed back out the carb by the piston. A compression test will prove that.

#5 Jurrel

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 02:14 PM

Ugh I would hope it wouldn't be valve timing. The person I bought the car from had just had the engine rebuilt by CCR. He had an oil pressure issue and jus couldn't deal with it at the time, so sold it. So the story is, there was a receipt from CCR in the car as I recall too.
If the distributor was taken out to work on the oil pump, its possible it went back in backwards and it would cause the same issue?

#6 Cougar

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 04:51 PM

It would be a little hard for me to believe that CCR would send out an engine with bad valve timing. I recommend you check the compression first before checking the timing belts.

Placing the disty in 180 out doesn't effect valve timing but it does effect ignition timing. Perhaps you are feeling a slight backfire from the ignition. If the compression is good then the disty may be the problem here. By placing your finger in the plug hole for number one cylinder and feeling for pressure by moving the crank you will know that the piston is on the firing stroke. Place the piston at TDC and then check the rotor position in the disty. It should point to the wire for number one. I think the rotor turns CCW and the firing order is 1,3,2,4 if I remember correctly.

#7 Jurrel

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 05:24 PM

I plan on checking that first thing tonight, oh and it is a 1.8, no belts just timing gears.

Yes I think your right on the firing order, another thing to be checking tonight, I just haven't had a lot of time on the weeknights to try everything. Mostly been trying to follow wires to see what goes where and trying to get the fuel pump to kick over, which only happened when we tried bypassing the FPCU.

BTW do you know if the 84 1.8 brat has just the FPCU or does it have a fuel Pump relay as well? The FSM seems to indicate it doesn't, but I would love to know for sure.

#8 Qman

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 05:42 PM

Pull the #1 spark plug. Rotate the engine until it blows compression. Then bring it to TDC. Verify that the distributor is indeed pointing to #1. If that checks out then check the ignition circuit. Including the coil. You stated that you had spark but never the color of the spark. Also, check the fuses to make sure you do not have a blown fuse. I have seen several non-running Subes with bad fuses.

Good luck.

#9 Jurrel

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 07:18 PM

Still at work, yay me. Ya sorry I had my friend checking the spark, as I was in the car turning it over. He started it was a good white spark. Oh and the coil is/was showing 1.3 for resistance, as I recall, so I'm assuming its good.

And yes I have checked every single fuse I could find in the car, nothing has blown yet.

Compression test and TDC are on the todo when I get home tonight.

#10 Jurrel

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 03:41 PM

Okay still have the air blowing back past the carb, But compression si around 150 average. The dist appears to be pointing to the right spot for Cylinder 1 as well.
We have tried some Starting Fluid, in case the gas wasnt getting there, and still nothing. We are turning, but never ever catching even once.
As I said before, all the fuses are good.

#11 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 03:52 PM

Comp. at 150 sound good. Your valve timing is fine.

Sounds like your ignition timing is out of whack to me. The air coming back out the carb is a good indication and the fact that it won't even run on starting fluid.

You have comp, you have air, and you have fuel (starting fluid). The only thing that remains is ignition (at the proper time).

You either have weak spark, or it's not happening at the right time.

Put the #1 cylinder at TDC with both valves closed (compression stroke). Use a drinking straw through the plug hole to feel the piston travel and when you feel air blowing past your finger over the hole you are one the comp. stroke. Adjust the flywheel so the mark is pointing at 8 degrees BTDC (rotate counter-clockwise from TDC).

With the flywheel at 8 degrees BTDC install the distributor with the rotor pointing at whichever plug tower you want to be #1. Install the cap and install the wires counter-clockwise starting with the one you chose in the order 1,3,2,4

That's all it takes.

GD

#12 Jurrel

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 04:58 PM

Okay We now have no air blow back through the carb, thanks GD. I guess some how the last owner got the dist backwards?

But aside from that, still no start. I agree it sounds like an ignition issue, the fun part is always finding where it is.

#13 CAS83Brumby

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 05:18 PM

Make sure that your valves are adjusted right. CCR had me adjust my valves tighter than stock, so make sure that you find the gap for your motor. Call CCR. my valves clattered and it had a hard time starting until I had that gap. I also had the no oil pressure issue on two of my CCR motors, but we finally worked it out and the motor is good.

Stock: Intake: .010 in. Exhaust: .014 in. CCR: Intake: .008 in. Exhaust: .012 in.

#14 McDave

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 05:45 PM

Were the spark plugs sooty black?

#15 Jurrel

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 06:06 PM

Well the last owner said it ran great for the 5 or so miles he ran it before mothballing it for the oil issue. What were your no oil pressure issues withe CCR motors??
Also no the plugs are quite dry and clean, they dont appear to have been used much at all.

Too hot to do more tonight, Going to drain the gas tank dry, go with high test gas in it, change the cap/rotor, coil and wires tomorrow.

#16 Cougar

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 06:32 PM

I suggest you mark the position of the disty where it is now. Then loosen the bolt so you can reposition it. While someone cranks the engine try moving the disty angle slightly in either direction. Hopefully you will get some firing action then.

#17 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 07:52 PM

Well the last owner said it ran great for the 5 or so miles he ran it before mothballing it for the oil issue. What were your no oil pressure issues withe CCR motors??


Test the oil pressure with a mechanical gauge. It's probably just the sending unit or cluster. They aren't real accurate or particularly reliable.

Too hot to do more tonight, Going to drain the gas tank dry, go with high test gas in it, change the cap/rotor, coil and wires tomorrow.


No need for high-test - regular 87 will be fine. Add a bottle of techron and a bottle of seafoam to the full tank. The seafoam will take care of any water in there and the techron is good for preventing deposits if there is any old gas left in the thing.

GD

#18 CAS83Brumby

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 10:05 PM

The oil pressure issue's on the first motor, was they forgot the seal for the oil pickup. The second motor was an issue with the oil pump that they sent with the motor.




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