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VW + Subaru = Veedubaroo


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46 replies to this topic

#1 lostinthe202

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 07:04 PM

Sooooo through a no fault of my own, I'm the proud new owner of 2 VW TDI motors. The motors are new in that they have never been run. They were purchased from VW new but never saw their new home but instead sat in storage since purchased somewhere between 1998-2001.

I don't really have much interest in VW cars, not really my aesthetic. What I do like however is subarus, older ones in particular. I drive a '96 OBW as my DD and I love the thing in terms of reliability and even mpg (I squeeze 30mpg average out of that puppy), but in the "looks" department I kind of feel like I'm driving a high-top basket ball shoe.

I've also got pleeeeenty of room (30 acres) to store stuff like, oh I don't know, a fry-oil refining operation so with the appearance of these motors I got to thinking...

I have done a TON of reading and searching on the topic and there are definitely some hurdles to overcome. But as the saying goes, given enough time and money anything is possible. Time I've got (well sort of), money I don't got, but really the expensive part is behind me and that is the motors (you seen what those bad boys are fetching on feebay??).

Also, I happen to be a machinist with access to CNC mills, lathes, welders, a laser cutter, and soon a wire EDM (muuuuaaahaaaaaaaa!!!!). So any fabrication needs will be met. I figure I can relocate just about anything that needs relocating, it's just a matter of figuring out where to put it.

This is my build thread. I'll keep it updated as I progress through the project with pics when applicable. So without further adieu....

Here's the vehicle. One 1988 GL-10 purchased cheap with a blown clutch.

Posted Image

This car was purchased by the PO from the original owner (his ex-girlfriend's parents) and subsequently used and abused as a, "get trashed and drive through the woods shooting at stuff" rig, see exhibit A...
Posted Image
. He yanked the auto and stuck in a push-button out of I don't know what. The interior is salvageable, just a little dirty, though it is missing some of the console pieces.

It's currently sitting on 14" steel pugs hidden behind some legacy hub caps (up for grabs if anyone wants 'em). I don't know what I'll do for wheels. I'm still sorting out the motor's power so once I know that I'll know what size of wheels I'll be after.

I'm on the hunt for a 5spd D/R with a 3.9 diff which has the closest matching gear ratios (with a d/r option) in subie trans that I can find to the various VW trans that came with diesel engines. Whatever difference there is in torque I'm going to have to make up with larger tires. Hope the axles can take it!

I very well may need to have a "power hump" in the hood, I haven't gotten that far with measurements so I don't really know, but if I do, I thought maybe of incorporating an intercooler into that hump (it all makes sense in my head, trust me...). But I'm not breaking out the plasma cutter until I know my apples from my oranges.

Here's the engine. I whipped up a stand for it last night and brought it home. I've got some locking casters for it and, once I locate my trans, I'll be putting a cross-member on the stand to hold the trans and give the assembly some more stability. I plan on mating the trans and motor on the stand so I can get a good look at everything including the starter engagement to make sure I'm all good. I also want to get the motor running on the stand to make sure I don't need to reseal anything (it has been sitting for many years so who knows...)

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At the very least, I'm going to open up the injection pump and reseal it and make sure things look OK in there. A buddy of mine is stuffing a Cummins 4BT into his Land Cruiser and when, after some unsuccessful attempts to start the motor, he rebuilt his injection pump this is what he found...

http://s141.photobuc...injection pump/

I get Mon and Tue off, one for MLK day and one for the inauguration ( I work in DC which is going to be a real barrel of monkeys) so my plans for this weekend are to hit the JY and look for my Trans and rear diff., then pull the motor out of the GL10 and take some measurements of how things are looking space-wise.

If I get my trans, I'll get started on my adapter next week. I have been on the hunt for a roasted, toasted trans to cut up so I could jig it up in the mill and get my points for an adapter. But I haven't had any luck with that. Luckily, one of the other toys we've got kicking around the ol' shop is one of these.... http://www.faro.com/...tent=pro&item=2 ...I don't know how to use it, but there's only one way to learn eh? I figure I'll give it a whirl and cut out a template to try and see if I have it right.

OK, that's all for now. I'll write more when I have more!

Will-

#2 davebugs

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 07:10 PM

I drive a 2001 TDI every day. Great engine (and expensive). Timing Belt/idlers is even more critical that a Subaru.

The best site I've found for them is tdiclub.com.

Looking forward to the build. Usually it's a Subaru into an old air-cooled VW it seems.

Dave

#3 lostinthe202

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 07:23 PM

Yeah, TDI club is a great resource. I've got a thread going over there too for the VW side of the project. I'm really not very knowledgeable about VW stuff so it's HUGE help.

http://forums.tdiclu...ad.php?t=236135

#4 davebugs

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 07:31 PM

FYI look for someone close with a vag-com - laptop software and a licensed cable. Sooner or later you'll need the assistance. I think I paid like 250 for mine several years ago. Invaluable when working on any VW/Audi. Sure with there was a similar offering for Subaru.

You'll need some things like a turbo, ECU, all expensive stuff. You may want to look for a TDI wreck.

Good luck. Should be interesting. Keep us posted.

Dave

#5 subiemech85

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 10:23 PM

here's the links I was telling you about and some others:

http://www.vwdieselparts.com/
http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/

http://www.partsplaceinc.com/

http://www.4crawler.com/
http://www.4crawler.com/VWpickup.shtml

http://www.oneilcast...tley/index.html

#6 bratman18

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 05:18 PM

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing this project move along! A TDI Subaru! That will be awesome! Hopefully you get it all to work!!

Sweet! This was my 1,000th post

#7 lostinthe202

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 06:21 PM

Sweet! This was my 1,000th post


Whoora!!

Well, I had a pretty frustrating day that ended well.

I hit another JY looking for several stuffs, not the least of which is a 5spd 3.9 d/r and rear diff. I found only two ea subies. One had 347,000 on the odometer (I look forward to that number!) and a pushbutton trans. It did have a 3.9 diff but with that many miles on it, I wasn't willing to pay the 70 bucks they wanted for it only to hear it whine.

The other subie I found had chips taken out of the case around the rear axles. I guess either someone didn't know how to remove them or the PO of the car was trying to drive over parking blocks!! It was a 3.7 so it wouldn't have worked anyways.

So the subie stuff was a bust and I moved on to the VW side of things. I was hoping to find a busted trans out of something to use to get the VW side of the adapter plate. I did find a trans that someone had already started to disassemble, but since I had no idea how those things come apart I couldn't get the cases split and I was NOT paying 90 bucks for something I was going to use once. Didn't find any turbo units either.

So I left the yard empty handed :(

BUT! after getting home and spending an hour playing the google-random-association-click game, I found a pdf cad drawing of a tdi motor :clap: so next week when I get into work I'll laser out a template and see if I have the right drawing.

I also located a 3.9 diff (thanks bratman18 !!) so that will be on it's way next week.

I do have a lead on two trans that are not too far away from me. The pull-a-part JY's are a better deal at 90 bucks no matter what condition or miles, but one is $200, 130k and they will include the shifters and console parts so I can live with that. The only catch is that they are only open on weekdays so I have to take a half day to go get it, grrrrr.

Well that's all for today. Tomorrow I'll pull the motor out of the GL10 and dangle the TDI in the bay and see what's what.

Will

#8 lostinthe202

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 06:20 PM

Today wasn't as productive as I was hoping for, had to clear up some items on the "honey-do" list. But I did get a bit done. I fired up the ol' jubilee and pushed the GL10 (roasted clutch, won't drive) into the bay where I'll be doing the work...

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Then plopped the engine down on some casters and pushed it into the shop...

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The next few hours were filled with firewood, fence repair and teaching my brother-in-law to drive a stick (eek!)

Then I retired to the office with a beer and a print-out of the TDI cad drawing I found and drew up a template....

Posted Image



On Wednesday (if I go into work, the inauguration has DC tied up in knots) I'll cut the above out of a piece of whatever I have laying around just to see if it's the correct drawing. I could do it the hard way, or I could use our metal xerox machine....

Posted Image

Tomorrow will be engine pull day, I promise!!

Off to the movies

Will-

#9 baccaruda

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 02:51 PM

Nice! I've looked into this a little bit and measured against my wagon after its lift was installed but without the engine in the bay. You may need to put a lift in the car to keep the top of the engine lower.
You may also need to look into the adaptations made to the VW motors that let you tilt it at an angle as in a vanagon conversion.
It's the best choice for a diesel motor (excepting the new Subaru TDI of course) because it is lightweight at 300lbs dry and has similar output capabilities to an EJ22.
Good luck and don't skimp on the clutch! :lol:

#10 lostinthe202

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 07:30 PM

OK, so last nights movie was waaay worth the lost work. We saw Slumdog Millionaire and I highly recommend it.

Anyway...

Good luck and don't skimp on the clutch! :lol:


You mean like the PO did...

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Posted Image

So I got the engine out. This baby has definitely seen some heat. I'd be surprised if the HG's are good. It has a new rad (I've been told they're prone to lamination) and it was filled with mostly water. But luckily, I don't give damn, 'cause I got other plans!!

EA82T anyone?....

Posted Image

So I did some measuring of middle of crank to top and bottom of both engines. I haven't crunched the numbers yet. Length wise I'd say I'm ok, but, as baccaruda and others have pointed out, height is the real issue.

I have been looking into the 50* tilt option of the vanagons. Supposedly it involves a different oil-pan and injection pump. The oil pan I can make. The pump, well lets just say I'd rather not swap if I don't have to.

Well that's it for tonight, tomorrow I'll put all the numbers together and see where I stand.

Will

#11 bratman18

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 09:01 PM

Wow that's an awesome clutch! I bet it grabbed real good! I say don't let the height problem stop this project. Maybe as someone else stated you could lift it a little, and you could also have, like you stated, a big ole power bulge!!:banana::grin: Can't wait to see this progress!!

#12 lostinthe202

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 07:44 AM

So after doing the numbers,

The rough height center crank to bottom of the oilpan for the VW - 7.75"
...to top of vw - 21"
...to bottom of oilpan of EA82T - 9.75"
...to top of EA82T - 13.5"

So yes the VW engine is considerably taller, but we knew that already.

The overall height of the EA motor is 23.25" so to get the VW motor to have the same vertical height I'll need to tilt around 40* If I were to do no lift. There's a little fudge in those numbers since the oilpan is curved, I could probably get away with less then 40*, but you get the idea.

I'm going to post over at TDIClub to see if anyone knows the max tilt I can use with the current pump and oil pan. If I can get at least 30*, I'll probably run the engine with it's current setup and make up the difference in body lift or a bulge in the hood. I don't want to go too high though as this isn't going to be a strictly offroad rig.

more when I got more!

Will-

#13 subiemech85

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 01:15 PM

send me the ea82T :banana:


look at vw fox, they are inline and tilted, small rad off to one side, as the front pulleys are almost touching the front of engine bay

#14 The Beast I Drive

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 12:21 AM

If you decide to go the lifted route, I can whip up a kit that will easily hold up to the torque of that motor ;) With that kind of power you will be able to turn larger tires with no problems at all. Since you plan on mating it to a Sube tranny, Im sure you are aware how different the power curves are, and you might want a 3.7 trans for better highway driveability, the Subaru engines power band is usually between 2000 and 4000 rpm, where a Deisel redlines around 4000 typically.

On a related note, my mom has a 2000 Jetta TDI with the 5 speed, and it hauls a$$ once the turbo spools (can you say LAGGGGGGGGG). I dont care much for the body of the Jetta, but you cant argue with a consistant 48 mpg
-Bill

#15 subiemech85

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 01:59 AM

I do most driving in 4th with the ea81 and 3.7 ratio trans, keeps engine happy in it's power range 3K @ 55 and 5th = 3K @ 70

the 1.6 vw make good power @ 5K

#16 lostinthe202

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 08:19 AM

If you decide to go the lifted route, I can whip up a kit that will easily hold up to the torque of that motor ;) With that kind of power you will be able to turn larger tires with no problems at all.


Fantastic! I'll PM you about that.

Since you plan on mating it to a Sube tranny, Im sure you are aware how different the power curves are, and you might want a 3.7 trans for better highway driveability, the Subaru engines power band is usually between 2000 and 4000 rpm, where a Deisel redlines around 4000 typically.



Yeah I've been wrassling with this. I want the low reduction which means a 3.9. Also I've been using this calculator http://www.scirocco.org/gears/ which lets you plug tire/wheel size and gear ratios to give you speed or rpm depending on which you supply.

So according to the cal. with the same tires, in my case 195/65-r14 which is what came on the car, with a 3.9 setup that has a .780 ratio for 5th has the engine spinning at 2984 while a 3.7 setup that has a .871 5th has the engine at 3162rpm

so 2984 is probably a bit higher then I want to be spinning that motor, I think I'd be happier around 2000 rpm, but I haven't played with tire size yet to get something comfortable.

On a related note, my mom has a 2000 Jetta TDI with the 5 speed, and it hauls a$$ once the turbo spools (can you say LAGGGGGGGGG). I dont care much for the body of the Jetta, but you cant argue with a consistant 48 mpg
-Bill


So what's your mom's TDI redline at? This motor I've got is no latter then a '98 so they might be different, but I'd still like to know.


Will-

#17 The Beast I Drive

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 03:40 PM

So what's your mom's TDI redline at? This motor I've got is no latter then a '98 so they might be different, but I'd still like to know.


Will-


Ill check when she gets home, she rotates between the Jetta and the 86 GL that she has, it costs about the same to drive either one due to gas and deisel price differences, the GL gets a consistent 29 mpg when she drives it. I could never get better than 25 mpg when I drove it :grin:
-Bill

#18 lostinthe202

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 04:12 PM

Yeah let me know, thanks. I can only hope for 48mpg. Since I'll considerably higher in the air then a jetta I doubt I'll get it, but if I can manage 40mpg I'll be happy. The difference in diesel around here isn't quite the same as there, but it's still higher that I will probably end up paying more for fuel if I run straight diesel. but I've got a plan for that too....

#19 lostinthe202

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 08:57 PM

Had a chance to fire up the ol' instant gratification machine today and cut out my template for the VW to see if I have the correct cad drawing...
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Looks like I do...
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I was hoping to try and pick up a trans on the way into work tomorrow, but looks like that isn't going to happen which means it has to wait until next week. So Saturday I'll pull the push-button that's in there and drag that into work on Sunday when I go to get the other TDI (which hopefully has the turbo on it) and use that trans to make the subie side.

Will-

#20 bratman18

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 09:03 PM

Sweet!! Good luck on getting the tranny! I love this project, it's so much different than any other on the board! I can't wait to see it work!!! You should get it done by May and drive up to Carlisle for the car show!!:grin::banana:

#21 lostinthe202

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 09:18 PM

You should get it done by May and drive up to Carlisle for the car show!!:grin::banana:


I hope to have it done long before then. It's all I can think about:rolleyes:

#22 bratman18

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 09:19 PM

I hope to have it done long before then. It's all I can think about:rolleyes:


Think you can make it to the show???

#23 lostinthe202

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 10:05 PM

Think you can make it to the show???


What and where and when?

#24 bratman18

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 10:07 PM

What and where and when?


go into the meet and greet section and you'll find a post about The Carlisle car show. I plan on going with my Brat! Check it out!

#25 bratman18

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:36 AM

Any progress?!!




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