300td4x4 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 I want to build a hot pre 1976 AWD Subaru. In California, cars made before 1976 are exempt from emissions testing. All of our cars are currently smog exempt. We have three diesels and a 1973 Porsche 914. The 914 is powered by a 1986 Ford 2.3 turbo engine. I have a 1981 MB dturbo diesel wagon is on a 1984 Nissan 4x4 frame. If I can't find a pre 1976 4wd would the 4wd stuff go relatively easily into a 74 or 75 fwd chassis? I would like this to be a simpler conversion than the ones above but am willing to work at it if necessary. I want to know if the later tranny from a GL10 or a Loyale will easily go into the early body. I would also like to put rear disc brakes on. Also, what cars came with locking rear diffs if any and how would that go in the back? At the JY it looked to me like using trailing arms form a GL10 turbo would give me rear discs relatively easily. Brian Roth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300td4x4 Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 Sorry, I just thought of a couple more questions: Are the OHC turbo engines better than the pushrod engines? Is a turbo long block different than a NA longblock? When Ford put the turbo on the 2.3 they added a steel crank and forged low compression pistons among other things. Did Subaru do similar things? BTW, I don't mind trimming in the engine compartment to fit an OHC engine in the pre 76 body. Also, does anyone have a pre 76 body for sale in or near Northern California? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Wow - that's gonna be a lot of work. The Gen 1's are small - putting an EA82T in them I doubt is possible - due to the size of the engine. An EA82 when transplanted into a Gen 2 car, comes within 1/2" of the frame rails - in a Gen 1, you would certainly have to make modifications to the frame to get one in. You could probably fit an EJ20T into one - in fact I've seen pics of a Gen 1 Brat with an EJ transplant - it was in AUS tho. Figure on having some major work on your hands - not just with the drivetrain - but with the suspension as well. The Gen 1 cars don't handle great, so you would want to transplant a newer suspension under it - if nothing else, just for the 5 lug wheels, as I'm sure you don't want 4 lugs on it. Axles are going to have to be custom made - but can be done. Good luck. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Are the OHC turbo engines better than the pushrod engines? You don't want the pushrod turbo - it's rare, and difficult to find parts for. Not to mention it's only 95 HP. Turbo long blocks are different - not in the way you describe tho - they have different pistons - different heads, and even the crank and rod bearings are different (wider I believe). They also sport a 7.7:1 compression (EA82T, and EA81T), unlike the NA counterparts. I do not believe the crank and rods are forged. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosens Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 '75 is the first year of 4WD.To find one and ruin it would absolutely keep you off my Christmas card list.....but I'd still like to see what you do to it.The wagon is the only 4WD available up to the Brat. There's a difference in the unibody from a 2wd and 4wd wagon.I've had them side by side('75's) and they are different but you can probably make a conversion with a little effort.I have a complete '75 4WD drivetrain with suspension,not pretty but functional that you can have for a song.Long distance between us though. Feel free to email about 70's cars,parts,info,etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300td4x4 Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 When you say that custom axles will have to be made why is that? Are you talking about the front or rear? By the way, I made custom axles for my Porsche 914/Ford 2.3t. But could I use, say, a GL-10 OHC/turbo motor with the rest of the 75 drivetrain? Then add the rear discs by using GL10 turbo trailing arms? Or could I even put in a gen 2 hi/low trans and use the rest of the gen 1 stuff? Or is the gen 2 trans wider? If the OHC engine is too wide it seems like a little trimming in the engine compartment would be pretty easy. Sorry if I offend or disappoint with my interests. not much is sacred with me. I would post a picture of my hybrid MBZ but i get a message saying the file size is too big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Well - the main problem your going to have is that virtually *everything* from any newer model is going to be too wide. The EA82T engine will need a lot of frame cutting to fit - and you only get 115 HP with that. With say an EJ22T from an early legacy you would get 160 HP, and the engine is narrower, so would be easier to fit.... plus they don't have the timing belt issues that the EA82's had - or the lifter ticking.... AND you get the ability to use the AWD trans instead of the 4WD trans. Not to mention better parts availibility. The engines and transmissions for old / new will not bolt up. There was a bell houseing change that came about with the EA81 engine, and another when the EJ's came out. The EA71 trans in the car will bolt to only the EA71, or EA63? or something like that.... Rear suspension is the same way - too wide - the axles would have to be cut down for anything you apply there. I would get the rear end from a later Gen 1 4WD, and try to make that work. Such as from a late 70's Brat, or wagon... There is only 1 model that is pre 76 and 4WD - the 4WD wagon. In fact - 75 was the first year Subaru made 4WD's..... As for axles - any newer model axle will have to be cut down - they will be too long. Likely if you going to use parts from various years you might have to use the outer end of one year, and the inner end of another. http://www.cvaxles.com in florida can make whatever you need I should think - they have a good reputation on this board... As for converting a 2WD to 4WD - moosens is likely right - a conversion could probably be done - but I know for a fact that Subaru likes to make that more work than it seems. For one thing the tunnel sheet metal is probably too small to accomidate a 4WD trans, and thus without a lift, the tunnel would have to be beat in, or cut out to make room. I'm sure something could be facricated for the rear end, but now you've got more junk under there, and that's gonna make it hard to get it low to the ground.... GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbrat Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 there's a guy in TX who put a 89 GL-10 motor and trans into a 78 Brat, so it's do-able. there's a guy in CO who had a legacy motor/driveline in a gen1 brat as well, but with a lift... the rear discs from a ea82 Turbo or GL-10 will fit right onto the GEn2 rears, but not sure about the gen1 set-up, as the rear suspension was different. reason for "possibly" needing different axles, is due to differing spline counts on the trans stubs between turb/carbed. do you want to keep it all Subaru? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300td4x4 Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 Yes, I would like to keep it all subaru except that I would like to drill the hubs for six lug and use minitruck wheels of some kind. How about this: Legacy engine/trans with the gen 1 rear. If the ratios match then the main problem would be the cut down axles for the front, right? But the ratios probably don't match because the gen 1 was a 4 speed, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajavwnsoobnut Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 well for me I would stay with gen 1/gen 2 stuff..... you can fit a EA-81 or EA-81T in there and the turb'd motor should be easier for you to get cause of alot of them are being sold to yards cause of that darn smog law stuff down there in cali. the 4sp d/r tranny will fit especialy if you get a tranny from a 81 brat the rear disc conversion will be a little difficult cause of the 75-79(ish) rear axles are not a CV but U-joint axles. I am going to try to work out how to make them work on mine cause the splines on the brakes are larger but the front hubs from the donor car will fit on (I have a set of front hubs and have tried it but don't know if the rest of the equip will line up with the other hubs as of yet need a set of rears to try out on) also with the u-joint shaft if you want to keep them they will work with the LSD's as long as you take out the stub axles and place the diff in the cars original housing (some mod required but not difficult with the right tools) if any other questions just email me cause I am going to mod my 76 quite a bit as soon as I can park it and give it an overhaul. ideas for me are: ea-81 with ea-82 SPFI rear disc brakes (saving the rear u-joint axles so going to be trying to mod them to fit) 4sp d/r (already have it sitting in the garage from a 81 brat) roll cage new dash and guages with a intergrated tach/speedo (SPA design makes one ) and a few other odds and ends oh yeah here is what my wagon looks like http://www.pdxsports.com/photos/showphoto.asp?folder=200308rallyx&photo=20030824_8738.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Yeah - Legacy stuff is the way to go - the rear end from the Gen 1 should be fine - ratio wise it can be changed to whatever ratio you need simply by swapping the diff. I think the Gen 1's were 4.11 already tho... I know some of the legacy stuff is 4.11. Probably best to use a legacy LSD rear diff with the Gen 1 rear suspension, and cut down legacy axles back there.... Stay away from the EA81T - hard to find parts for, rare, and small on HP... Regular EA81's are nice - but after building it to get 150 HP from it, you could have just bought an EJ engine, and trans for the money and time.... the 4sp d/r tranny will fit especialy if you get a tranny from a 81 brat The 81 Brat tranny is no different - it's the same as any other 4 speed D/R. And yes - they will fit - but your not really looking for D/R are you? You would be better served by AWD I should think.... GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prattj1 Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 I can get all the rear end parts you need from a gen1 wagon (complete rear end torson bar, trailing arms, rear diff (not a 4.11, a 3.7 w/no LSD] axles and brakes. I have the same plans for a 74 coupe, building it into a 4WD car. If you live near the boarder, I have both the old drivetrain (EA71, and the new EA81 D/R 4spd out. You can measure them if you want. I think a major question that hasnt been asked yet is: what are you gooing to use this car for? if it is for going slow over rocks or through mud, I would go with a Dual Range trans to get those gear ratios lower. If you want to have a rally car to push hard on the road, go with the legacy stuff. The only major problem I think you would have is on the underside of the car. There is no driveshaft tunnel, and the gas tank is going to be where the rear diff needs to be tucked away. I assume if you are considering doing this that you have a welder cause YOUR GONNA NEED IT!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubaruJunkie Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 I live in sacramento, not too far from P.Pines at all. As a matter of fact, i just came into a cherry '78 Wagon. Same body style, has a 1600cc 4WD 4spd. Contact me and we can talk -Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubaruJunkie Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Oh yeah... and is this your rig? I saw this parked next to Pick N Pull a few months ago. Cant be very many like it. Looks like its a Mercedes on a Toyo Frame. If so, very nice work. -Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosens Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Indeed,very nice work.I'd love to have that ride here in snotty Fairfield county,CT.All your rides sound outstanding. I'm all for this idea.Heck,I've dreamed about this sort of thing plenty of times.I like what Jason has to say. ea-81 with ea-82 SPFI rear disc brakes (saving the rear u-joint axles so going to be trying to mod them to fit) My thoughts,not sure of any of this working perfectly: EA71 or EA81 w/SPFI and D/R 5spd,cut axles,rear disks. I'm sure you'll have something to show soon. As for finding one and having your way with it,so to say,I'm all for it.But if you waste a perfectly good example of say a '75 4WD wagon that could be restored then I'd disagree.Good luck.Personally I want to see a '72-5 coupe lifted and 4WD.Could make the Hatch Patrol nervous and scared,LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 http://usmb.net/gallery/albuo62/17048670_brumby2 http://usmb.net/gallery/albuo62/sexy_brat2 here are the pics GD is talkin about. A gen 1 Brumby from Austrailia with an EJ20TT in it. Pretty sexy eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300td4x4 Posted January 16, 2004 Author Share Posted January 16, 2004 I'm a bit overwhelmed with information at this point. Thanks for all the replies. Yes, that is my MB wagon. I tried to post a picture but kept getting a message that the file was too big. It is a 1981 300TD turbo. It is sitting on a 1984 Nissan 720 King Cab 4x4 chassis. The stock engine and tranny are coupled to the Nissan divorced transfer case with a 13" homemade driveshaft. I've got 20K miles on it since the conversion and it gets about 21 mpg. It does get a lot of looks. I had sort of hoped to ruffle the feathers of died in the wool MB faithfuls but most actually seem to like it. The people who drive new S classes don't notice it seems. I like it a lot but it is pretty slow with 120 hp and weighing about 4000 lbs. Thus the subaru conversion. I'm hoping to end up with about a 2500 lb. car with 150+ hp. What is the hp rating of a early 90's 2.2 EFI motor (sorry, don't know the numbers yet). What year did they start the 2.5 and what is their hp rating? That sexy brat is just the type of vehicle I want to end up with. Good on road handling, great snow traction but only needs to handle 6 in. or less of snow, big wheels, low pro tires, lots of hp but also 25 mpg or better. And, most importantly, smog exempt in California so it has to have a chassis older than 1976. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubaruJunkie Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 I believe to be smog exempt, the car has to be 30yrs old. So it would have to be pre-'74 at this point. 2006 you could do pre-'76 Good luck finding a chassi tho. There's a dude in Grass Valley that has an automotive shop. He has two 360's sitting out front. Ive stopped and talked to him, and he mentioned he used to have a FF1 and a few GLF's etc... Also, there's a guy who lived in Northern Nevada/California (cant remember where right now) who had a '76 4WD Wagon that needed a new engine. Body was 100%. He wanted $200 for it, but i couldnt find a way to get it back to sacramento. That was about a year ago. Not sure what he ended up doing with the car. Maybe i'll contact him and let you know what happens. I get funny looks in my lifted wagon as well... but its not as big as your MB, and only has 75hp. Talk about slow. -Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300td4x4 Posted January 16, 2004 Author Share Posted January 16, 2004 Last year I found out that the DMV was subtracting 29 years from the model year (or date of manufacture in the case of a car with no pink slip) to determine what is exempt. As of Jan 1st, 2003, 1974's are smog exempt. You can go to CA.gov or something like that and it will tell you. However, this year the info on that site seemed to be worded differently so I cannot say for sure that they are sticking to the model year - 29. I will find out for sure before I buy a 75 chassis. I am really a fanatic about this. I've failed too many smog checks with all the vehicles I've owned. I promised myself I'd never own a car that requires smog 2 years ago and have stuck to it so far. I won't even buy a 76 anticipating getting it on the road for '05 in case the legislature decides to stop advancing the year for exemption like they did back in '85 when they were going by 20 years old. If you find of anyone with a 75 4wd wagon let me know. I might be interested in that 78 for parts at some point but I need to acquire a 75 first to see what I've got. I've got an ad going in our local free paper called the "Gold Panner" saying I want one. It starts today. I'll see if I get any calls. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubaruJunkie Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Brian. Head to the Pick-n-pull in Carson city. They have alot of Gen1 cars from time to time, even seen some Gen1 Coupes and sedans that might be better suited as a racer than a Wagon. I refuse to sell the '78 as parts. The car is too straight and clean to part it out. But i wouldnt mind seeing it being turned into a racer. I myself was thinking of doing the same thing to it. I had a Fulltime 4WD 5spd with center diff lock, but it was towed by the state for not being regg'd. So now i dont have the tranny. I also had plans on building a EA81T but cant find one. Anyhow... i'll let you know if any leads develope. -Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyruss Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 sorry no resources for a older sube. just wanted to back up junkies statment that its 30 years or older now for smog exemption. at least that was the word I had in my most recent Smog update class. sorry to get off track but do you know if anyone is hiring up in your area? I want to move up there some time soon. I just cant quit my job here untill I find a new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subafreak Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 I would love to build a 76ish wagon streetcar. I would go the EJ Turbo route with AWD and I'm thinking of grafting in a Legacy stlye rear suspension, cut down to fit of course. The only prob is finding a body solid enough to start with:( Sometimes I wished I lived in Arizona or something but I live in the rust belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300td4x4 Posted January 17, 2004 Author Share Posted January 17, 2004 The CA.gov website does say they subtract 29 years from the model year but I suppose it is not worth arguing about. I called the DMV last year ('03) and was told that '74's are exempt so it would make sense that '75's are this year. Unless they changed the way they are figuring it. Oh, well, I'll find out for sure before I make a purchase. Rallyruss, what kind of work do you do? Did you look up my profile to see that I am a high school math teacher? If you are a math teacher the answer is we hire someone new in my department almost every year. I do still need to know about the 2.2's and 2.5's. Which is better? What kind of fuel mileage would I expect from each? What are their hp ratings? Also, how do you tell a LSD from an open other than by what type of car it is in? Are they tagged? How about telling the ratio? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subafreak Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 EJ20T 2.0L WRX motor. 227HP Ok but lacking .2Liters for my tast. EJ22 2.2L about 132hp depending on year. Almost bullet proof, very reliable. Best motor subaru ever built. EJ22T 2.2L Turbo 91 to 94 Legacy. 160HP 180FTlbs. Also bullet proof. Built for turbo duty, and easy to make more power with intercoolers and boost controllers. My top pick. EJ25 2.5L Availible in SOHC and DOHC configs. About 165HP 165FTlbs Moslty bullet proof but have had headgasket issuse that I'm not sure Subaru has acctually fixed. EJ25T 2.5L Turbo. STI 300HP Kick rump roast tourqe and power. If you can afford it this is the motor you want. Yet to see if it will have the headgasket issuse of it's non turbo brothers. EG33 3.3L 92 to 97 SVX. 230hp 227ftlbs bullet proof and fast out of the box, but a little to big for first gen. Older diffs have stickers telling if it's an LSD and what the ratio is. Sometime around 95 I'm guessing they stoped putting the stickers on so you will has to guess. I don't think there is anyway to tell what ratios are in the tranny unless you take it apart to count teeth so the best idea is to get a tranny and rearend out of the same car so you know the ratios are the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyruss Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 the diffs almost always have tags to let you know whats inside. I always look under cars at the JY hoping to find a 3.7 lsd for my wagon. as for job skills, I am a journeyman mechanic heavy and light equipment. with ASE, smog, and other certifications. also worked in auto parts and tree work. oh I have a class B comercial lic. my wife is trying to become a teacher she just can't quit her job to finish school because of the cost of living down here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.