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Weber Conversion..won't idle
Posted 07 February 2009 - 10:53 PM
I got my redline weber adapter in the mail a couple days ago and installed it today. I put my rebuilt 32/36 Weber on her and tried to fire her up. It ran for about 2 seconds and died.
It was cold so, I kept my foot in it. Engine sounds like it's starving for gas, have to keep it in high RPM to keep it running, but missing and generally running poorly. Allowed it to warm up, turned idle WAY up to keep it going and started trying to find vacuum leaks. It was idling so high, it was hard to discern much difference if I had found one. But I discovered that if I put my hand over the top of the carb, it smooths out a bit and the RPM increase. If I close the choke, the RPM increase. I was able to get a RPM increase out of spraying the gaskets around the adapter. Big surprise. Took everything apart and retorqued all the hardware, reinstalled and same thing. Checked float level in carb, blew out all passages again, same thing. I suspect I am sucking some pretty good vacuum causing all of this to happen. I am about to go ballistic on this thing
Forgot to mention, I attempted to adjust mixture, but the screw is making no difference good or bad.
So, disassembled again. Took the adapter in the house and held the two parts together, (without a gasket) up to the light and I can see light between the two. Of course, gasket should take up this variance, I would hope.
My plea for help is, where do I go from here?
Any things I should look for that I haven't. Carburetor or adapter or who knows what? I am at the end of my rope.
Thanks a ton guys, without this site, I would have gave up on this monster a while back.
Oh, it's a '86 wagon EA82.
Posted 07 February 2009 - 11:34 PM
Posted 08 February 2009 - 12:19 AM
The idle was so insanely high it was real hard to determine for sure if I was getting much difference or if I just wanted to hear a difference. I resealed the adapter again with better sealant, but still getting the same problem. A plugged idle circuit is not out of the realm of possibility. Should I tear it down again and give the carb a good soak in a parts cleaner? "Cause I am willing to do just about anything at this point
Also, it seems that when I do get it running, it seems to be spraying a lot of fuel in the primaries. Now, I don't really have a frame of reference, but it seems like a lot. Anyone know what symptoms a car that needs a fuel pressure regulator will exhibit?
Again, I appreciate people taking the time to read and reply.
I just wanna drive my Soob again
Posted 08 February 2009 - 10:53 AM
Posted 08 February 2009 - 02:45 PM
I read through that post you just linked. Although my problem is that I have to set the idle screw almost fully in even to get it to run on it's own. However, the throttle plate discussion on that post got me to thinking. I removed the primary throttle plate because I was going to install bearings in the shafts, but changed my mind. I am curious if the plate is in backwards? Maybe covering up the idle port? I am gonna take the carb off again today and soak it in carb soak, and take a good hard look at everything again.
All emissions equipment was removed from the car prior to my ownership. All but the charcoal canister, which I hope to implement in my installation. EGR has been removed and capped and I have capped every unused port on the engine I could find. I had a hitachi on it 2 weeks ago that was running real good, so i believe all ports were capped and vacuum leaks stopped. The hitachi decided to start acting up real bad last week, so i figured it was weber time, but now this mania with the weber
Again, thanks for all the replies. They has given me to some more ammo to go at this thing some more.
Posted 08 February 2009 - 06:27 PM
Crossed my fingers and reinstalled. Gave her a couple of pumps and turned it over. Ran for about 3 seconds...died. Started again, kept my foot in it, runs pretty decent above 2000 rpm, with a bit of a miss.
Set the choke and fast idle and was able to coax it to idle on it's own for a bit. Sprayed the carb down with carb cleaner and back down towards the adapter and it smoothed out and idled up. So, vacuum leak at adapter. This time it was very distinct.
I am going to pull the adapter off...again.
I guess I am going to have to get a block and some fine grit sandpaper and try to get the thing level, get some new gaskets....probably have to get some gasket paper form NAPA or something and make gaskets for it.
I am not impressed at all with this adapter. I have bought carb adapters in the past for 4bbls and never, ever have had this problem. I understand it's a different design, being a two piece adapter is 90% of the problem, but the quality control at Redline or whoever makes these things seems to be awful. They shipped weird mounting hardware that is not correct for the vehicle, two of which were too long, I had to run a tap through every threaded portion of the thing.
So, any suggestions?
Try to make it flat?
Send it back?
Melt it down and make a cool hood ornament?
Posted 08 February 2009 - 07:05 PM
Posted 08 February 2009 - 08:14 PM
That will be the next step..thank you.
Posted 08 February 2009 - 08:47 PM
I didn't know they made the two-piece anymore EA82 only?
Either way, have them send you another one.
Posted 08 February 2009 - 09:09 PM
Use a sheet of glass, some 600 and then some 1200 grit paper. Lube it with WD-40 and clean the paper often with WD-40 (don't clean it with solvent or you will destroy the paper).
Also make sure your bolts aren't bottoming out or otherwise interfering with the fit. I've used the EA82 two-peice Redline adaptor several times without issue but I know that the bolts it comes with are not obviously marked as to where they go. You will also crack the adaptor if you aren't careful with bolt installation.
Posted 08 February 2009 - 10:08 PM
First you need to Know that the Kit K-731 Redline-Weber for EA82`s Comes with a two piece Adaptor Plate that has two Design flaws:
First: The Bolt`s Thread at the intake Manyfold comes in Nº 10 Milimetric (Around 1/4" ... I explain here in Equivalent measurement for easier understanding) and the Kit has the base plate that goes to the intake, Designed to be Held by Thicker Bolts Nº 12 Milimetric (Around 5/16") Which their heads fits Perfectly in the Cone shaped holes at the Base of the Plate, filing them, sealing and Holding Stronger... but those Nº 12 Bolts Don`t fit the thinner intake`s threads...
The kit also comes with the Thinner Bolts Nº 10 that fits the intake`s threads but their Heads Don`t fill the Cone Holes in the Adator Plate (Barely reaches to fill the Half) and Holds it Loose...
So: if you used the Thinner Bolts that Fits the intake`s Threads, they don`t hold Good and don`t seal Good...
The Solution: I Suggest you to do what I Did: I Sent my Subie`s intake to a Machine Shop, along with one of the Thicker Nº 12 Bolts, so they rethreaded the Intake`s Threads from 10M to 12M ( 1/4" to 5/16" ) Also I sked them to make Flat the intake`s Base.
So I Suggest you to do that too. You`ll Find my explanation step by step, plenty of Pictures and ideas in a Writeup I Did, at the USRM.
To reach a list of my Writeups, click on my avatar, and scroll down in my "Public Profile" Page.
Also: Use Shellac Between the Gaskets... Great Sealin` Results and its gasoline safe! See:
The Second Design Problem: in EA82`s with Power Steerin` Option, the Choke hits the Power Steerin` Pump, but that is not your Problem, I Guess...
... the two-piece anymore EA82 only?...
Yes! ... the Kit K-731 with two piece Adaptor Plates are just for EA82`s Only.
Edited by Loyale 2.7 Turbo, 08 February 2009 - 11:48 PM.
to Paste a useful Link for the "Shellac" Product
Posted 08 February 2009 - 11:34 PM
I suspected the bottoming out bolt problem, and bought shorter bolts for the adapter. I have been careful to tighten them down in a criss-cross pattern so as not to warp or crack the adapter. I will try the sandpaper gig, because these things are not flat. I noticed it before installation, but I guess I put too much faith in the sealing properties of the gaskets.
Loyale 2.7 Turbo--I am glad that you responded as well, I have read and re-read your installation and enjoyed your photo's as well. Your wagon is sweet
I drilled and tapped out the mounting holes to accept the larger bolts, as I too could see that the screws they sent did not fill the space in the adapter, plus they were too long in the rear and just didn't feel sturdy. I also bought some bolts that were the same style and thread size but slightly shorter, because it felt like the rear ones were still bottoming out.
One question; you recommend using shellac on the gaskets...do you mean like the "indian head" gasket shellac??? And if so, do you put it on the gasket only or the adapter as well?? One more thing, that stuff is soooo messy, how long did yours take to dry? Did you let it dry and then assemble or assemble when tacky?? I tried to use that stuff when I was a kid on some valve cover gaskets and made more of a mess than anything else Just curious on your experience on it.
Your right, no problems with Power steering...don't have it
Thanks for the replies folks...hoping to have another go at it tomoroww. It will be nice to have the old Soob mobile again.
Posted 09 February 2009 - 12:04 AM
...Loyale 2.7 Turbo--I am glad that you responded as well, I have read and re-read your installation and enjoyed your photo's as well. Your wagon is sweet ...
Thank you for your Kind Words!
Yes, I Use the "Indian Head" Gasket Shellac Compound, I Used it in my Weber Swap and in another Works I`ve done in other cars, each time with Great Results.
First I Covered Both sides of each Gasket with a thin coat of Shellac, then repeated another time to give `em a second coat... both thin coats.
I Didn`t let it Dry too Much... I Preffer to install everythin` when the Shellac is still Fresh... did not wait too much... Think around Two Minutes or So... when I finished spreadin` the Shellac, did the Gasket`s install... No Problem.
I only spreaded the Shellac on the Gaskets, not on the Plates.
Also I want to tell you that when I Did my Weber Swap, I did not sealed the Tiny Coolant Hole at the intake Manyfold`s Carb Base... so Shellac in Gaskets are Performing Great!
I Hope this can Help you.
Posted 09 February 2009 - 01:35 PM
Well, the adapter plates are now flat and sealing. Hooray!
The carb will still not idle....
I can set the choke and it will start first time on fast idle, run smooth and sounds really good. Let her warm up real good and..fizzle. No idle..runs like garbage below 2000 rpm. Actually took it out on the road and it is a huge improvement over the hitachi, minus the no idle problem.
So, I suspect that the problem lies somewhere in the carburetor. It was a used unit, that I purchased from a guy that ran it on a toyota pickup. He said it started having "problems", but didn't elaborate..so his buddy hooked him up with another Weber. I put a quality kit in it, soaked in parts cleaner and blew out everything with spray carb cleaner (I don't have an air compressor). I have a little set up that I used to check passages, where I have a small hose with a little nozzle on it that I blew through with my mouth (yuck). Every passage has air (or carb cleaner) coming out the other side when I blow through them. But, that is not as much pressure as a compressor.
Alas, I also noticed today while monkeying with the throttle, a small amount of up and down play in the primary throttle shaft....should I worry? A new Weber would be my choice of paths, but my wife is ready to kill me as it is with this thing, and I'm sure she won't go for a couple hundred bucks for a new carb.
I noticed that there are some vendors that sell bushings for the throttle shafts. Perhaps I should get some for the primary and maybe have it rebuilt at a shop? I am stymied, and don't have a bunch of money to burn. Any more pointers?
Thanks again guys
Posted 09 February 2009 - 02:58 PM
Don`t give up.These carbs are simple.
You are either rich or lean at attemped idle.
Test by closing the choke for an rpm increase on a lean mixture and a controlled vacuum leak for a too rich mixture.
Could be carb is flooding even though you adjusted float etc.
To answer your earlier question,that would be a symptom of a carb that needed a regulator.To get a positive read on fuel level,remove airhorn w/o removing carb.
Lean problems might include,missing idle jet o ring(s),ruptered or corrupted vacuum path to the choke and power valve diaphrams.
Might be worth trying a bit of additional ignition advance to gain rpm for a given throttle opening in case the transition ports are being uncovered by the throttle plate too soon.
Posted 09 February 2009 - 03:49 PM
When pulling the airhorn off the top of the carb after it was running, the fuel level looks appropriate, I would say about slightly more than 1/4 full, all ports, jets, etc under fuel level. Fuel isn't getting to the gasket, it's dry. I would say it's definately a lean condition. Closing the choke butterfly manually results in a wonderfully smooth and high idle. I can actually set the choke and it runs good, albeit high rpm. As soon as the choke is opened and it's off high idle and onto the idle circuit, it dies. You mentioned ruptured power valve or choke diaphrams, I replaced the power valve actuator with the kit, and inspected since then, and looks good. The choke deal...I have converted to manual choke, but yesterday I did notice that there was a vacuum port (appeared to be anyway) to the carb to the choke unit. I removed the cover from the auto choke cover to expose the choke diaphram assy. Now, none of this stuff is operaational now, but I see a small port inside there, it looks like a vacuum port, that may be part of the circuit I mentioned a bit ago. There is the diaphram, and a gasket. The gasket is broken. Could this be my monster here? I looked at exploded views of the weber and it does not show a gasket in this housing, only the diaphram....I may be chasing down something entirely unrelated here...i don't know
I won't give up, I have been into a couple carbs before, Quadrajets, Holley four barrels, hitachi, etc..and this thing is really basic...that is why I am so frustrated that I can't finger it out
Thanks again for the advice and encouragement.
Posted 09 February 2009 - 04:13 PM
Has to be something like that seeing how the previous owner had problems and the idle passages are clear.
I know it is hard to judge operational fuel level w/the float removed but 1/4 full sounds too low.Try raising it.
Unscrew the idle jet holders and make sure the o rings are there too.
Take a good look at the various aluminum and brass plugs intended to seal drilled passageways as well.
I`ve epoxied over suspicious ones in the past.
Edited by naru, 09 February 2009 - 04:26 PM.
Posted 09 February 2009 - 04:32 PM
Posted 09 February 2009 - 04:47 PM
Posted 09 February 2009 - 05:27 PM
Also, messed with the timing a bit, to help it out, but it's outta range I am sure. The idle adjustment screw helped out a bit, so it must be partly on the idle circuit, but not completely. I am gonna have to get another can of carb spray and try to hunt down whatever is leaking.
It's a lean condition, I am sure, as closing the choke plates gives me a higher rpm, although, unlike last time closing them completely will kill the motor...so maybe somothing is improving.
Posted 09 February 2009 - 09:19 PM
Posted 09 February 2009 - 11:09 PM
The primary will stick at about 2000 rpm and you have to punch it good to get it to go back to "idle". The nut holding the linkage on is not too tight, just one flat past finger, like the manual says...so something else is going on. I really don't have the time to keep fiddling with this carb, and have recieved my wife's blessing to go ahead and get a new manual choke weber in a week or two. I am sure that this carb is usable, but it's gonna need someone with a bit more time to mess with it than me.
So, the old Soob is grounded for a bit longer. It's done more sitting than driving in the last six months.
Cheaper than a new car though, and cooler too
If I had a little more time I would scrounge enough FI stuff to do that...that's the ultimate goal...but I need the car to drive here sooner than I could do a conversion, I'm sure...any thoughts from the FI camp? Thanks again!
Posted 10 February 2009 - 12:25 AM
For Example: Not everybody knows that the Choke Spring`s Base is Mounted to the Carb`s Body with a li`l Pin that Seals a Hidden Vacuum Port... I Don`t know why there is a Port in such place, but if your Weber Sounds like too much air breathing thru a tiny hole, you must check if the Choke Mechanism is Tight.
Also, the Fuel jets must be 140 in Both the Primary and the Secondary, for Proper Workin` in EA82`s ... Both gives a total of 280, really Near than the Craptachi`s Measurement... (Craptachis have 116 in Primary and 160 in Secondary) ...of 276.
So if your carb came from a Toyota (22R? ... I Guess) Must be improperly Jetted for your Subie... Too big Primary gas can Drown an engine at idle.
I Suggest to Check your Carb`s Jets and if they`re Not 140, try to Change `em with the 140 ones.
Also: I Suggest to install a Return Spring in the Acceleration Cable`s Plate.
Hope this can Help.
Posted 10 February 2009 - 07:59 AM
As for your hessitation off idle, what idle jet do you have? Its that brass screw to the right of the choke housing. If you unscrew it it should have a 50,55, 60 written on it. I think stock these things came with 50s for idle jets and i found it would not transition out of the idle circuit nicely. I upped mine to a 60 and it does not hessitate anymore.
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