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Dyno Day, serious numbers, real proof, real pictures.


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#1 WJM

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 12:34 AM

ok, here are the pics, and then... my findings. Pleiades? Chip in!

Mine:
http://www.geocities...am1701/dynoday/

Pleiades:
http://www.subaruwor.../dyno/dyno.html

(lemme know if links are not right!)

Specs: 1st session was done with roller calibrated RPM, its not accurate, 4th gear pull. everything is in street settings, like it would be on pump 93...but it had a mix of 100 competition and 92...the mix turned out to be something like 97 octane.
2nd session, 3rd gear, RPMs from plug wire...so its accurate. Timing on det. thresh-hold, WOT problem adjusted (only getting 90% throt., as appoed to 100%, adjsuted the throt. cable), sstill has 97 mix.

Ok, findings.

Exhaust: It blows ALOT, ALOT more than you think. Serious gains are to be had in this department.

Intake: not much more can be done other than the intake I have infront of the turbo, with the addition of a quality IC, spyder intake and XT6 throttle body.

Cams: Unknown, to be tested later

9.5:1 SPFI shortblock under factory turbo stuff...DONT, unless you plan on using 100 competition fuel at all time, or you are not going to drive hard past 4500. Otherwise, its great for low end stuff below 4000 on pump gas...93 only tho. with 87, its not good at all. More on that later.

Timing: If you are right on the detonation thresh-hold, you are loosing power. My second session I poped the timing up to the edge. On the first session, i left it alone as like it was running on 93 pump gas. So, much learned here.

Fuel system: WAY WAY WAY RICH!!! Got richer as I went higher. It leaned out more and more with more timing, but lsot pwoer as you can see. Pleides RX did fine too running 10 PSI, it NEVER hit fuel cut, and it took him all day to get to 90 in the top of 4th. A good minute and some at 10 psi. No fuel cut! It was rich tho. Boost spike to, what was it? 14? I think our fuel systems are fine to a lot of boost, as long as intake air charge temps are down, and we've got larger turbos.

Cooling: It was fine. Just turn the aux fan on. We both had the factory mechnical fan installed.

Overall engine pull for so long under WOT: Both of us were quite pleased that they didnt scatter all over the place. Our 4th gear runs took all day to top out, and both engines were between 5 and 6 for some time,but didnt take long to get within 10 "mph" of the end. 3rd gear was better....if i had not messed with the timing. I'll be going back before the next dyno day, Read: euro ECU, pure 100 fuel, proper timing, better Downpipe/exhaust.

ok, so i am kinda dissapointed. I was shooting for ATLEAST 180 WHP with the cams...but they were not installed...so i was hoping for at least 110. only 99. then 80 something for round 2. I think vehicle weight may have played something...but, the guys said it doent matter too much....but then again, different gear and timing settings. So, ive reatarded it some, and I will get that euro ECU installed, do pure 100...and go back sometime soon....if I can make some $$$ to cover that! lol. im broke.

So, to everyone out there...work on your intake and exhaust first. no boost until thats done. THEN...adjust the timing. If you still get ping at ANY time...retard it. about 1~2 deg below the DTH (detontation thresh-hold) should be it. THEN...work on boost, and adjsut the timing accordingly, whether up or down. Now, i know there are other out there...Skipper, SubaruTex, and Dennis, and others who will think different...or same. Please post what you know. I want to get as much info before my next session. its $125 per hour, i want to know what I am going to do BEFORE i spend that again, and be ready to mod/chage things qucikly while its on the dyno.

dj72: as soon as you can, i know that will be some time, post a real dyno chart. try to get it done on a mustang, for an apples to apples comparrison. If my weight calculation is correct, if the dyno thinks the XT is 3000 lbs or so, you will show more power than if its set to read a 2080 lb car...but its a theory. I will get my hands on a gtech, and play with it. Cornering Gs are my concern...but I'll use its little dyno stuff just for comparrison.

more to come!

#2 WJM

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 12:43 AM

oh, the 9.5:1 issue.

With any kind of intake and exhaust set up, and it woudl matter about the IC, its the fuel/compression issue under load/boost that is the problem. The engine, on stock timing, is fine unless its under a load. When boost kicks in, the knock sensor does its job, and no ping until about 4000~4500, then it wont pull anymore under WOT. nothing but ping. Retard it, and it will pull...not much, but no ping.

Put in competition fuel, and set it for 25 deg...pulls all day long up high, and MASSIVE power in the lower revs, then the turbo start to spool. then starts to die out due to the small turbo, and INCREDIBLY small and illdesigned crossover pipe...cams help this problem fade...but headers/uppipe assy woudl be great to have avalible. Believe me, the crossover pipe, its SMALL. I had to change the one on the GL-10 before i ran the dyno, it was broke after the 1-3 dumped into the 2-4 stream...SMALL. pics of that to come.

Anyhow, its not very steetable, as a beater engine. you need to be careful of the timing and ping situation. Granted that i took an 800 mile trip with it pining all the way and it still lives, and lived thru the dyno pulls...(6 total, 2 were simulated 1/4 runs, very inaccurate)...and all this other abuse....you will ahve more gains with intake/exh work, and a larger turbo.

Ok, every one start ranting!

#3 Subarutex

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 02:57 AM

That was a good read.

Its good to finally see some real numbers. Sort of dissapointed at the numbers (as Im sure you were at first) but that just brings me back down to a level head... So i'll know what to expect.

I agree with pretty much everything you stated.

My car is setup the following way:

WRC IC w/bpv
13psi of boost
Spider Intake
Custom cold air intake
Apexi SAFC

Exhaust is in the process of being done.

You say the fuel system was running rich. Did they put you on a wideband O2? My A/f guage says I'm running just barely richer than stoic under WOT.

Good job guys. Thanks for taking this financial plunge for all of us. Hopefully my time will come soon.

#4 WJM

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 09:22 AM

Did I mention that an RX did 3 pulls? ok, doesnt look like it. 10psi i said, anyhow....a stock RX, with a 1 3/4 glass pack and bottomless intake airbox...83 whp. about 118 est crank HP. It did have a BOV, but that doesnt affect whp.

i was REALLY dissapointed in the numbers. Like I said, I was expecting 110~115 as a MIN!

Richness: They had one, but we didnt use it. Black smoke from exhaust? Yes. Rich smell? Yes! Pleiades and i had really pretty exhaust until the upper RPMs, he gota touch rich, where as I got ALOT rich on the first session, where as the second was not as bad...the car was warmed up all the way.

Warp3, Pleiades and I seem to be the crew making alot of progress lately with the EA82T engines these days...and as always, I will keep everyone uptodate with our findings.

#5 pleiades

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 10:44 AM

Don't be too disappointed with the numbers! Did you see the numbers for my GT? :lol:

I knew the rx was faster. Also, wjm, I've figgured out why the boost wouldn't hold over 10psi, even after I adjusted it: The current boost controller doesn't have the hole in the side of it, so it gets that intial surge because of how tight the spring is, but then it can't do anything to control the flow. It needs that hole to let some of the air out so it can run higher. I might run the legacy's laterl link up there today to see if I can press it straight. I'll be taking the rx up, I may thow that other boost controller I have with the hole in it in case the evo guys will let me sneek in 2 pulls. hehe... :)

Also, so everyone knows. We had 20 cars on the dyno yesterday and almost all of them had very acurate numbers for what was done to the cars. Stock WRX's were turnning between 150-160whp, which is dead on for a mustang dyno. The highest power came from a svt cobra with 100 shot! 323whp!!!! There was an evo close behind with 318hp (on the stock turbo! :eek: ) lol.....

#6 WJM

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 10:45 AM

hey, get online!

You want to try my MBC? I can leavehere around 1130-1200.

#7 Dennis ex24

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 12:51 PM

needless to say we need cams to get over this hump

i spoke to a guy named john at delta and he was pretty interested in what i (we) are doing with these engines...im not sure we could do 180whp on the stock turbo though.

good to see somebody doing real dyno time...im shooting for 140-160whp tops as it sits now, we'll see what happens.

#8 WJM

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 12:55 PM

Cams, yep. Next time I go, id love to find some 110 to throw in the tank.

I am going to install some of those 87+ turbo cams, and see what happens along with a Euro ECU.

Hey Skipper (and anyone else who might know), are there really a difference in cams between the 85/86 and the 87+ turbo EA82T's?

#9 pleiades

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 02:12 PM

well I'm still scratching my head at the manual boost controller. With the hole, the damn thing won't run less than 17psi! :eek: :lol: (fun, but a little on the edge, you know)

#10 WJM

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 02:13 PM

Yeah, too much heat creation. At least its wintertime, and that helps.

#11 NoahDL88

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 02:18 PM

extra octaine won't increase hp unless you advance the timing, going from 87 to 110 without doing anyting to the car will make you loose power, because the octaine rating is the level of its ability to reduce knock, the higher the octaine the harder it is to ignite, so running the least amount of octaine you can will net the best hp numbers.

#12 WJM

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 02:28 PM

Dude, if I run 87 in this time, it wont generate ANY power past 3600. 93, it will get power to 4500. With 100, it will pull to 6k, then start to lose power and detonate, with 25 deg. The second session i had too much timing, no detonation until top end...but the first session i had ZERO detonation. I created 10 more WHP. Explain that.

And I dont see where power crosses at 5252. Show me that.

#13 Warp3

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 04:24 PM

and by the way I finally drove Pleiades's RX this weekend...way more stable than mine at high speeds (I think mine needs new struts), but I swear my RX is WAAAYY torquier...now I am running about 12psi to his 10 but even when I was running less than that I still remember it pulling stronger...maybe it's a different between it being an '86 vs an '88.

I would have run my RX on the dyno but it was having some cooling issues (I have a new radiator but still need to install it) plus it would have been tricky to get two cars down there. I did run the 2.5RS though.

1999 2.5RS with Cobb Spicy cams, K&N Panel Filter, Borla Gen 4 Headers, Brullen Medium Catback (sans the resonator now), lightweight flywheel, and other non-whp-increasing mods as well:

137.9 whp
147 corrected torque (I'm pretty sure this was the number...the printouts only show the 356.6 uncorrected torque)

A bone stock 04 WRX was there as well and put down:
162.8 whp
159.0 corrrected torque

That means I'm not that far off...all the whp -> flywheel hp calculations I've tried (three different calculations...some using a formula, some comparing with the stock WRX numbers) put me over 190hp with over 200 lb-ft of torque! Sweeet :)

Next time I'm running the RX (or both if I have some more stuff done to the RS as well).

#14 WJM

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 04:26 PM

Hey Warp3, how about I give you a set of tires for your RX, and i get to use that Gtech for a bit?

#15 Warp3

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 04:28 PM

Originally posted by NoahDL88
extra octaine won't increase hp unless you advance the timing, going from 87 to 110 without doing anyting to the car will make you loose power, because the octaine rating is the level of its ability to reduce knock, the higher the octaine the harder it is to ignite, so running the least amount of octaine you can will net the best hp numbers.


I think you failed to read the part where he is running 9.5:1 compression (N/A pistons) in a turbo car (which is factory tuned for 7.7:1 compression) and is still running 1-2psi more than stock. So yes, he DOES need the extra octane if he wants his engine to stay together.

Ideally, you would use the maximum octane your ECU can take advantage of (if it can't advance timing much) the minimum octane that doesn't create knock. Since he gets knock on regular 93 pump gas, I don't think going lower is an option...LOL :)

#16 Warp3

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 04:31 PM

Originally posted by WJM
And I dont see where power crosses at 5252. Show me that.


It's supposed to...part of the problem is that the dyno was estimating rpm from the "calibration" done at the beginning...this obviously led to a margin of error on the RPM scale. Every one of my charts crosses at more like 4800-5000 rpm. So the hp/torque numbers are still decent but don't put too much faith in the exact RPM levels where they claim make that power...LOL :)

#17 Warp3

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 04:34 PM

Originally posted by WJM
Hey Warp3, how about I give you a set of tires for your RX, and i get to use that Gtech for a bit?


That sounds like a good deal... :D Shoot me an email at warpthree@yahoo.com.

#18 Warp3

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 04:35 PM

BTW, I just remembered to mention...the RX's estimated horsepower at the flywheel (based on the boost level I'm currently running) is what the 2.5RS is putting to the ground! LOL

#19 XSNRG

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 08:00 PM

WJM
How hard is it to mate the XT-6 TB to the spider?

What is different about the Euro ECU and are they compatible with USDM cars?

XSNRG

#20 WJM

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 08:13 PM

I have not tried to mate one to a spyder, or a standard intake. I guess its time for me to find one and try!

The Euro ECU gave the Euro cars 136 HP and about the same TQ as opposed to the USDM 111-115 and 128 or so TQ number. The one i got uses an EGT sensor instead of an O2 sensor. I will plug it up tomorrow and see what happens with no O2, and with an O2, and see if it works the same...or something. I hope it doesnt fry it.

#21 calebz

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 08:43 PM

I have been trying to get a Euro ECU from marnix for over a year.. lucky bastard... But, then again, I couldn't go to Germany to get it.

#22 josh long

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 08:47 PM

Originally posted by WJM
oh, the 9.5:1 issue.

The engine, on stock timing, is fine unless its under a load. When boost kicks in, the knock sensor does its job, and no ping until about 4000~4500, then it wont pull anymore under WOT. nothing but ping. Retard it, and it will pull...not much, but no ping.



I have a question.


On other efi systems the knock sensor is a simple micraphone retard setup. The knock sensor hears knock and the ecu reads the count (amount of knock) and pulls timing x degrees until no knock then feeds in timing until it "sees" knock again. This is on a distributorless set up though. How does our ecu read knock and how does it deal with it accordingly?

Boost without timing is useless but if you want to " say" your running XXX lbs of boost.

The object is to get the most amount of timing possible, without knock. Has anyone tried water injection? This is proven to be the best "bang for your buck" knock reduction device.

I completely agree on your assessment of the exhaust system. this is the single biggest restriction in our setups.

I believe when I pulled off my muffler with only a cone filter I saw 10psi boost without changeing the stock boost control setup. ( from memory (bad) ) This was just the stock muffler! And yes the crossover pipe is terrible.

Josh

#23 josh long

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 08:52 PM

Originally posted by WJM
I have not tried to mate one to a spyder, or a standard intake. I guess its time for me to find one and try!

The Euro ECU gave the Euro cars 136 HP and about the same TQ as opposed to the USDM 111-115 and 128 or so TQ number. The one i got uses an EGT sensor instead of an O2 sensor. I will plug it up tomorrow and see what happens with no O2, and with an O2, and see if it works the same...or something. I hope it doesnt fry it.




At least find the voltage output from the egt and o2 (0-1v?)before you just try it. unless you want to fry it.

No egt should be fine it just will more than likely put the ecu in "safe" mode.

Josh

#24 WJM

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 09:05 PM

calebz: yep, I had to go all the way there, just to get it! LOL He is cleaning garage these days, and offered it to me.

josh long: from what I know of our systems, it does the same thing...but there is a limit on how much the ECU can retard the disty. If its already retarded all the way, and its still detonating, there is nothing it can do about it. Down low, i think the engine can do 30 deg, and put out a ton of power, but up high, its gets tricky and wants 25...then 20. Then its not putting any power due to the speed of things, and the lack of an IC, lots of compression, and crappy crossover pipe....that and cams and other things that need sorting before we can make power up high like the EJs can.
Oh, the knock sensor puts out AC voltage according to knock. more AC, more knock, and vice versa.

#25 Nug

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 12:16 AM

Timing doesn't always equal more power. The concept of pushing timing up until it pings and then backing it off is hogwash. Today's modern combustion chamber designs allow less total timing to be run and still burn quick. Do EA82's have an efficient combustion chamber design? From the sounds of it, I sort of doubt it.
If I was in this situation, I'd build a longblock with around 7.0:1 compression and then crank up the boost. Unless I could do something about the combustion chamber shape.




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