SubiPilot Posted April 25, 2009 Author Share Posted April 25, 2009 Thanks Gary, That's what I thought. I do have two clips now of smoking the blues... First clip was right after my 1000 mile break-in oil change http://pilotcar.tv/040809_subismoke.avi and the second clip from Friday after the first 3000 mile oil change http://pilotcar.tv/042409_subismoke.avi Both of these clips are DiVX avi the second one is just over ten minutes long. The second clip took much longer for the smoke to clear as I was driving very slowly waiting for the load. Normally the smoke clears very quickly as in the first clip. Any thoughts on this? It seems to me that if it were rings it would smoke constantly. This is now making me a bit anxious beyond the costs of replacing the motor... I need this vehicle for work and it is now our busy season. Having this vehicle out of service costs me $300-400 p/day in lost work. Still hoping for a quick fix. The motor is running great aside from the valve noise and occasional blue smoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 rings smoke on acceleration. Valve guides/stem seals smoke on deceleration. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted April 25, 2009 Author Share Posted April 25, 2009 rings smoke on acceleration. Valve guides/stem seals smoke on deceleration. nipper Thanks nipper... I was checking with my mechanic and he suggested it could be a bad PCV valve (new at install), valve guide/stem seals, or that the rings haven't fully seated yet (4k miles on the motor now). Still waiting to hear back from the supplier on the course of action to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwoodsboy Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 or that the rings haven't fully seated yet (4k miles on the motor now). With a professional rebuild, you shouldnt have troubles with rings... they should be long seated by now. I HAVE seen the occasional customer that "goes easy" on a new motor, mistakenly thinking it will prolong the life of the engine if they dont push it. Drive it hard and hot for a couple days. If that doesnt seat your rings, nothing will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 By 7000 miles the rings should be seated. Subarus use harder rings then most. It may come down to a compression test wet-dry to see what is going on. A bad PCV or misrouted hoses (not thata there are that many) or a clogged hose can cause oil burning. I would let the miles pile on some more and see what happens. the supplier knows of your issues, so you would be covered if you want to add more miles and take a wait and see attitude. And your using regular dino oil? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 By 7000 miles the rings should be seated. Subarus use harder rings then most. It may come down to a compression test wet-dry to see what is going on. A bad PCV or misrouted hoses (not thata there are that many) or a clogged hose can cause oil burning. I would let the miles pile on some more and see what happens. the supplier knows of your issues, so you would be covered if you want to add more miles and take a wait and see attitude. And your using regular dino oil? nipper Thanks nipper, yup regular dino oil at least until 10k miles... but having to change oil every 3k miles I don't think I'll be switching to synthetic until after warranty expires... too expensive. If the blue smoke were a constant thing I'd be more concerned but it still seems to be occasional altho I am beginning to be able to predict when it will smoke. Seems that when it idles at a slight incline it's most prone to smoke a bit, and then after 10-15 minutes of idling. Idling on a flat service doesn't seem to cause as much smoke. The valves still seem extra loud and it still doesn't seem to have as much pep as my '97 with 290k miles.... altho it is better than it was during the 1k break-in. I was going to replace the PCV valve and check any of other possible causes while I'm waiting to hear from the supplier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Is it possible that your dipstick is wrong? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subiemech85 Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 occasionally my '78 BRAT will let out a huge smoke cloud upon startup and will last up to a minute? runs fine, but he valves?? on this motor seem louder than any of my other Subs and several people have asked me why they sound so loud... beats me LOL. I wonder who else has mystery noises and smoking issues CHECK the AIR FILTER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 Is it possible that your dipstick is wrong? nipper huh? lost me on this one... the dipstick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 huh? lost me on this one... the dipstick? It almost sounds like the engine may be overfilled with oil. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 Nope... I've been very careful about not overfilling it. Are there different dipsticks available? I have the dipstick that was original with the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 (edited) Usually, when the rings on an engine wear out, you first see blue smoke only when the car accelerates. Then as the rings continue to wear, you see the blue smoke more and more. I would not expect this blue smoke from a "new", "quality" rebuilt engine. The chances that the blue smoke will cure itself are exceedingly remote. Bite the bullet and diagnose the problem now. Usually, when you're dealing with suppliers it's better to make warranty claim now, rather than later. It also a good idea to have the supplier put all his assurances in writing. And while you're at it, have the supplier put into writing what he is willing to do if engine number two is a lemon like numero uno. I know that you say that you're dealing with a dependable supplier. But with many suppliers the longer before you make a warranty claim the more they try to weasel out of it. Supplier: "You've had the rebuilt engine six months, how do I know that your teenage son (or wife) didn't trash the engine"? Or, "maybe your teenage son (or wife) ran the engine out of oil and didn't tell you". A dishonest supplier is a cornucopia of bullshirt. Maybe I'm a little paranoid. But I had a truly horrible experience with a rebuilt engine. Only filing in small claims court stopped the supplier from just taking my money. Edited May 2, 2009 by The Dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 Thanks The Dude, I can fully appreciate a healthy sense of paranoia serves a person well these days...and I'm trying to avoid thinking the worst since the leak issue I had was handled well. I already notified the supplier by phone and have been told I'd be contacted. Then I emailed them and received an email saying this was all noted (I sent video clips showing the problem) and that I would be contacted, Thank You for my patience... you guessed it still waiting to be contacted. I am good at keeping a paper trail so every phone conversation and email has been documented. I'll be giving a full review once/if this is resolved... still hoping for the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccrinc Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 I must put some feedback in here: Mal, the reason you haven't been contacted yet is that Rick (the owner and best diagnostician) injured his back very badly in January and has not been able to work consistently since then. (It's hard to work when your legs and feet are so numb that you can't walk.) Yes, we are aware. Yes, we are trying to diagnose the problem. Yes, we stand behind our work. I hope that he will be able to be in the office Monday or Tuesday, will be able to check this out further and offer his advice. Emily http://www.ccrengines.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted May 3, 2009 Author Share Posted May 3, 2009 I must put some feedback in here: Mal, the reason you haven't been contacted yet is that Rick (the owner and best diagnostician) injured his back very badly in January and has not been able to work consistently since then. (It's hard to work when your legs and feet are so numb that you can't walk.) Yes, we are aware. Yes, we are trying to diagnose the problem. Yes, we stand behind our work. I hope that he will be able to be in the office Monday or Tuesday, will be able to check this out further and offer his advice. Emily http://www.ccrengines.com Hi Emily You and Amanda both told me I was waiting for Terry to return from vacation, now you're putting me off another five days. I'm sorry to hear about Rick, but this is the first I've heard about him, or having to wait for him to come into work, or how that would matter, since the motor is in my car ... in Connecticut. I know you are aware of the problem since I did my best to inform you. Whether you were trying to diagnose the problem or not I wouldn't know, since no one contacted me to ask questions. I'd think diagnosis would require as much input as possible from the person experiencing the problem firsthand. I'm sure even with an injured back Rick could use a telephone. I would expect you stand behind your work since you offer a warranty. There seems to be two issues at hand here: 1) your motor is failing to live up to expectations 2) your customer service is failing to keep your customer informed I hope to hear from Rick, or Terry, or someone from CCR the LATEST next Tuesday. Since I have not heard otherwise I will continue to use this vehicle. As far as advice I seem to get far more from the good people of this forum than the supplier of my motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 UPDATE! Without having my mechanic or me perform any diagnostics of any kind, or asking any additional questions... Terry from CCR, who claims to have never encountered this before, is somehow thinking it is a FUEL related issue. Not sure how he has determined this. Mind you it's taken three weeks now to get this much info out of CCR. I guess it takes time to find a cause that doesn't point to a bad motor. Still no info from CCR on how to test or diagnose this. This is how I understand exhaust smoke issues: White smoke - water and anti-freeze entering cylinder and burned with the fuel (steam) Black smoke - excess fuel which can not be burned (running rich), fuel injector issues, fuel pump, carburetor if equipped. Blue smoke - caused by engine oil entering cylinder area and being burned with the fuel mixture, bad seals or gaskets, bad rings or valves. An article I found essentially saying the same as above (notice it's from myhonestmechanic.com): http://www.myhonestmechanic.com/articles/smoke_out_tailpipe.shtml Despite Emily's adamant claims that CCR stands behind their work, I can't help but feel like they're trying to dodge a warranty related issue. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Here's my immediate thought. Who pays for the diagnosis work? Seems to me a compression, or better still, a leak down test likely could give you all the information you need. It's not that hard to diagnose bad cylinder rings. It could be the valve stem seals, or something else, but you need to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) OK... well finally after 3 weeks I was authorized to have a leakdown test performed. 2 leakdown tests performed. Cylinder 1 - 17%, 15% Cylinder 3 - 15%, 12% Cylinder 2 - 10%, 8% Cylinder 4 - 10%, 8% Air could be heard through the Oil Filler tube indicating rings according to my mechanic. He feels there is a problem in the right side (passenger) of the motor. The research I have done states that a new healthy motor should show 5-10% leakage, a used motor is acceptable 10-20%. All cylinders should show the same leakage. Should a rebuilt motor classify as new motor or a used motor? Is it a concern that the right side is almost leaking double what the left side is? The solution is to change my brand of motor oil to Valvoline or Castrol for the next 2 oil changes (6000 miles) to help the rings fully seat. Edited May 17, 2009 by SubiPilot typo correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 20% leakage means it's time to rebuild an engine. Your engine has one cyclinder that is at either 15% or 17% out of the box. Personally, I'd be a lot happier with a leakage of 10% or less. You already have 7,000 miles on your engine. The chances that two oil changes are going to "fix" your engine would appear to be extremely remote. In fact, if it happens you might call the Pope, because I understand he likes to hear about miracles that occur. I certainly wish you well. I hope the oil changes seat the rings and the blue smoke stops. But at 7,000 miles I'm not all that optomistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 A rebuilt engine is essentially a new engine. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 SubiPilot, if you don't mind me asking, how much do you have tied up in this engine? How much was the engine, how much was shipping, and how much was the install? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiPilot Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share Posted July 10, 2009 SubiPilot, if you don't mind me asking, how much do you have tied up in this engine? How much was the engine, how much was shipping, and how much was the install? Sorry been rather busy past coupla months.... Well the motor cost me about $3000 shipping included Installation was about $1700 including all the new components I replaced, e.g. clutch, hoses, belts etc. So I'd say $4700.00 which is about what clean used late 90s Legacy wagons with low miles go for here in New England. The benefit of purchasing a new motor for a good chasis is the warranty. Although I grew quite frustrated with CCR for giving me the run-around, as Emily stated they DO stand behind their work. After changing the brand of oil for two changes I still had smoke and performance issues. Good news is I've received the replacement motor from CCR and Terry himself took extra precautions in making sure I had a reliable replacement. Still waiting to get it installed tho, figures once I get the new motor my mechanic is busy... LOL I'll post an update once the replacement is installed. Mal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Does CCR want the engine back? I wonder if they'll inspect it to see what happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 It's not uncommon for new engines to smoke during their break in period, but breaking in new rings should take less than 1000 miles. Unless its a big diesel engine for your tractor trailer truck that we're talking about... Have you spoke with your Lawyer about this? That should be your next step, unless CCR decides to fix this REAL soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru_dude Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Be sure you look up how to properly break in a freshly rebuilt engine. A properly broke in EJ22 should last well past half a million miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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