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Guest Message by DevFuse
 

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'Juddering' while turning; new steering rack installed.


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19 replies to this topic

#1 211

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 01:19 PM

I suppose this is similar in nature to my other PS/Steering rack thread but for 'search' sake I'm restating my question.

2K OBW (108k mi). Replaced the steering rack this week with a used (but good) one. Removal/installation went well.
However, now when I turn the wheel (right or left) at a stand-still I get a juddering feedback through the steering system. Almost like the power steering pump is not keeping up. I’m hoping it’s just air in the system still but I’ve given plenty of time to ‘burp’ the system out. Fluid levels are okay, belt is tight, and PS pump never did this before.

Is there a way to help ‘bleed’ the system out? Or is this a sign of something else?

A couple things I did notice however; immediately after replacing the rack and while the car was still on jack stands. I turned the wheel lock-to-lock several times to get the fluids to settle. I then started the car to run the pump, went full lock one way, then went full lock the other way and right near the end of travel the pump made a horrible squeal and continued squealing until I shut the car off. That was semi-expected since the fluid level dropped considerably; topped off and everything sounded fine.

As a second thought I’m wondering if that ‘squealing’ noise was the pump burning up or something. :eek:

#2 subaru360

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 01:38 PM

I like to turn the steering wheel back and forth with the wheels in the air and engine running for a while, topping off the level as needed while doing this. They make a bit of noise while getting the air out at full lock.

#3 211

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 01:46 PM

I did this initially. You're saying I should do it some more?

#4 subaru360

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 01:55 PM

I did this initially. You're saying I should do it some more?



That is what I would try first. I do that until the level doesn't drop any more.

#5 bheinen74

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 02:26 PM

Was the car in a Wreck before you had to put the new rack in? I can not think replacing a rack with only 108k on it is normal. These things usually last forever, unless accident of course smashes it up.

#6 211

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 04:07 PM

Was the car in a Wreck before you had to put the new rack in? I can not think replacing a rack with only 108k on it is normal. These things usually last forever, unless accident of course smashes it up.


My car has 108K. I don't know what the donor car had for mileage before the rack came out. But yes, the donor car was in a wreck but not bad; drivers side door.

The reason for replacing the rack out of my car is because I had a worn tie-rod that I let get a lot worse before I replaced it. Heavy shimmy while breaking- evidently this wear worked it's way into the rack causing it to get 'sloppy'. Not to mention I shuttle my Mt. Bike so I take the car off road (logging roads) a lot which didn't help the condition of the rack any.

The juddering in the steering only happens when the tires are on the ground and stopped.

#7 Wxman

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 07:42 AM

I had the rack replaced (with a rebuilt unit) on my 2000 Outback several months ago and was here with a similar (though not the same) problem description. I had frequent vibration/groan at full low speed turns (like in a parking lot). Two things I eventually discovered that you may want to check out.

1. There is a TSB for that model year with steering noises. It suggests removing a bracket from the PS hoses near the rack or possibly replacing the high pressure hose with one of new design.

2. Check your wheel alignment.

I had the bracket removed which quieted things down a little, but things improved significantly when an alignment was done (it was quite a bit off, especially toe). My noise is almost completely gone, though I still hear it slightly while parking on rare occasions. Several months later the steering works fine, so I think I'll leave it alone (though I considered having the PS hose changed). My original rack did not make any noises.

#8 grossgary

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 08:13 AM

i suspect you need an alignment. but i hate to recommend a $70 job as a "guess".

i've never had much trouble getting the air out of the system, so sounds like to me if it's holding the full level it should be fine. but who knows, your situation could be different, so make sure the fluids all good.

how were the steering rack bushings? if i remove a rack i normally just replace the rack bushings since you can get nice aftermarket ones for only $20 or so from whiteline or other companies. all EJ stuff is about the same, i even use the EJ ones on older gen steering racks.

#9 wtdash

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 09:50 AM

The juddering in the steering only happens when the tires are on the ground and stopped.



Auto? In P or D make any difference?

#10 211

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 10:10 AM

i suspect you need an alignment. but i hate to recommend a $70 job as a "guess".

i've never had much trouble getting the air out of the system, so sounds like to me if it's holding the full level it should be fine. but who knows, your situation could be different, so make sure the fluids all good.

how were the steering rack bushings? if i remove a rack i normally just replace the rack bushings since you can get nice aftermarket ones for only $20 or so from whiteline or other companies. all EJ stuff is about the same, i even use the EJ ones on older gen steering racks.


It was on my way to the alignment shop that I discovered the judder issue :-\, like literally pulling into the driveway. Alignment is done and the problem is there. The alignment shop was not able to replicate the issue because (as I'm discovering) it only does it after the car is warm (warm oil, warm pump?)

I did not think to look or even check the bushings. What bushings? are they inside the inner tierod boot?

@ wtdash: It's a manual transmission so no, it doesn't matter

#11 grossgary

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 10:39 AM

the steering rack has two large rubber bushings that wrap around the rack and are right where the brackets hold it to the car. the steering will shake and the steering wheel will seem to drift and have a delayed response. i don't think just "juddering" would be a symptom of those, so probably not it.

only when warm. odd indeed. maybe the pump is hosed, but hate to just keep throwing parts at it.

once it's starts "juddering", i'd get it to do it a bunch and then check the fluid - see if it's got lots of bubbles or something in it. maybe that would point to a bad pump (transmission pumps do that sometimes).

#12 Drewart

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:20 PM

I have a similar issue as this. the steering wheel studders when turning at low speeds, like turning into my garage. I read somethiing about a p/s additive that could help. Is this true? and if so does anyone have a suggestion of what brand I should use?



#13 nipper

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:48 PM

Er um .....

 

Why oh why do i have to ask the painful questions?

 

Is this an automatic or manual?

Why was the rack replaced?

 

And now the painful one

Do all your tires match?

Are they equally worn?

Any angry lights on the dashboard?

 

:popcorn:



#14 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:14 AM

Drewart appears to have a different problem than 211 from 2009. He seemed to have steering problems sitting still. But, as you hint, drewart could have torque bind. Hard to say, I'd start by trying to idle the car thru some tight circles. He DID say he feels it in the wheel so....could be air in the PS fluid or????


Edited by 1 Lucky Texan, 26 February 2013 - 12:16 AM.


#15 Drewart

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 05:40 AM

nipper,

 

Sorry about the lack of info. It is  an automatic, I replaced all four tires about a month or so ago. They are showing no unusual wear. There are no lights on he dashboard, and all is running well except for this steering issue. I believe this started back in November sometime? Also, the rack has not been replaced since I have owned it since August...It appears to be original or at least there for a long time. I didn't look for air bubbles in the p/s resevoir.

 

 The only way that I can recreate this problem in the garage is to have the vehicle raised and in drive while my wife turns the steering wheel. It doesn't seem to happen when the car is in park or  the engine isn't running, so torque bind may be a problem. I'm not exactly sure what torque bind is, but it seems to me that if the transmission is in gear when this occurs then torque must be a factor.

 

  This past weekend I disconnected both outer tie rods from the struts and checked for free movement of the strut bearings and ball joints...all appears to move freely with no unwanted movement.

 

If torque bind is the issue, how do I go about correcting?



#16 grossgary

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:31 AM

must have been a miscommunication on the rack, one of the earlier posts or something, Subaru steering racks basically never fail.

 

how in the world do you live in the rust belt and you seem to have easily "disconnected both outer tie rods"?!!!!  that phrase is never that simply stated in the rust belt!

 

"recreate the problem...while vehicle is raise"...meaning all 4 wheels are off the ground?

 

there's also a ujoint below the brake master cylinder.  those can get rusty and lumpy feeling, doesn't sound like what you're describing though and none of your tests seem to point to this.

 

torque bind:

1. install the FWD fuse in the holder on the passengers side strut tower in the engine bay.  let us know if symptoms go away.  (if they do go away then you have torque bind...if they dont' go away then we're still unsure).

2. if the torque bind does go away then fluid changes can often alleviate the issue.

3.  if the FWD fuse doesn't work or fluid changes don't help then the Duty C Solenoid and/or clutches need replaced in the rear extension housing.

 

The good news is the transmission doesn't need to come out for this job and it's not all that bad.  So you can do it yourself or it's not that costly to have done (relatively speaking).



#17 ivans imports

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:44 AM

try a new belt have seen many slip on the ps pully when they get glazed if it slips at all will shudder



#18 ivans imports

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:52 AM

also had a svx with a very worn preshure relif valve thiss airated the fliud badly and kept foaming over the top of resivor changed pump and problem was gone thiss happened right after i changed the rack out and was covinced it was a rack problem. But was the pump relif valve. I do see more shudder problems in the 99-05 eras i still blame a bad belt had one you could see the ps pully slow down and the alt and crank stayed the same speed is very diffacult to see but it happens

#19 nipper

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:15 PM

TB test. Go to a parking lot. Drive the car in as tight a circle as you can. With almost no throttle the car should be able to do this with no learching or jerking, and the steering wheel not fighting you.

 

Under the hood will be a small fuse holder pass side by firewall. It should be empty. Place a fuse in there and see if the issue goes away. The FWD lamp should light on the dashboard.

 

 

How to fix?

1st try a full tranny flush. 

If not a new awd clutch pack is in order.



#20 Drewart

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 11:23 AM

Sorry I haven't got back to this, been busy and it seems that the car fixed itself. It has not had these issues for a couple weeks now. I hope it stays that way! Thanks to all who offered their insights into my issue.






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