head gasket warrenty

[brompy]

was at a suby dealer getting parts today and I asked the guys about the head gasket warrenty deal of the day......they told me they thought that the warranty would extend to 80,000 miles on 98 and up............just an fyi for what it may be worth

[Subie Gal]

from the dealership:

 

WWP-99 Service Campaign - Cooling System Conditioner

 

Subaru has determined that certain 1999 through 2002 model year 2.5L equipped Subaru vehicles may experience an external coolant leak from the cylinder head gaskets. This is the result of normal relative thermal expansion and contraction variations of engine parts. As a precautionary measure, SOA is recommending that a special conditioner be added to the engine cooling system to prevent leaks from occurring or to correct existing leaks.

 

Only early Phase II 2.5 liter engines are affected by this campaign. Phase I 2.5 liter engines (some 1999 model year and prior years) are not affected. Countermeasures applied to the manufacturing process for those 2002 and later VINS not affected by this campaign have eliminated the need for this campaign to be performed on those vehicles.

 

In the future, it will be necessary to add Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner to the SUBARU vehicle cooling system whenever the engine coolant is replaced. The updated recommended service procedure as well as intervals for coolant replacement will be added to all applicable service manuals. As a reminder, we will include an update page in the owner notification letters that should be added to the Owner’s Manual and Warranty and Maintenance Booklet. We ask you to keep in mind that replacement of fluids (including Subaru Cooling System Conditioner) during inspection and maintenance services are not covered under warranty.

 

If the vehicle owner has this Service Program repair performed promptly, Subaru will extend coverage under the Subaru Limited Warranty on the vehicle for cylinder head gasket external coolant leaks to a period of 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever occurs first. Warranty coverage begins on the date the vehicle was delivered to the first retail purchaser. If the vehicle was used as a demonstrator or company vehicle before being sold at retail, warranty coverage begins on the date the vehicle was first placed in such service. As a further condition for this extended warranty coverage to apply, the vehicle owner must have Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner added to the vehicle at any subsequent cooling system services at the interval specified in the Warranty and Maintenance Booklet under the heading “Schedule of Inspection and Maintenance Services”.

 

Dealers will automatically be sent an initial quantity of Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner. Dealer bulletins and affected VIN lists will be mailed to dealers in early February 2004. Owner notification letters are scheduled for mailing in stages.

[forester2002s]

I have a 2002 Forester with the 2.5L engine (no head-gasket leaks yet at 40,000km).

 

Does anyone know which of the 2002s have the old or the new head-gasket design? Can I tell from the VIN?

[gbhrps]

SubiGal you are right on timely. Wednesday my 02 OBW with 52 000 km started leaking coolant. Small amount to be sure, but at stoplights the heating system would suck the smell into the cabin. I cannot find the leak anywhere, but have isolated it to the driver's side. I have an appointment with the dealership for Saturday morning to track down the problem. Thanks so much for the well written explanation. Its been most helpful and reassuring. I'll go armed with a copy of your entry when I take the car in on Saturday. I'll keep you posted as to the outcome. Thanks again.

[Alan Phillips]

Do I have this clear? 8 years 100,000 miles?

I have a 2000 Outback that leaks coolant from the head gasket on the drivers side. Probably done so since 50,000(always smelled it when the car was warming up) but very little until recently. Anyways now with 96,000 and leaking more consistently will it fall under this warranty or do I just get the conditioner for free? I am calling tomorrow!

[Scoobaroo]

Originally posted by Alan Phillips

will it fall under this warranty or do I just get the conditioner for free? I am calling tomorrow!

 

Is this cooling system "conditioner" a sealer? Adding a can of sealer to the cooling system to get these engines past 100k miles would be cheaper for Subaru than replacing the head gaskets.

I'm not sure that I want a sealer added to my cooling system.

GM had the same problem with their POS engines in the 80's and 90's. Every car that came through the door of the service dept. got sealant "tablets" added to the cooling system at no charge with or without the customer's knowledge. It was cheaper for them to add sealer tablets than it was to replace engines with porous blocks and seeping head gaskets.

 

Looks like Subaru is following in GM's footsteps.

They know that they're on the verge of a class action lawsuit over this head gasket issue. They'll take any low cost route that they can in order to avoid this.

[Scoobaroo]

What "counter measures" were taken in late '01?

Improved gasket? Different head bolt torque?

Different block and head design?

 

Anybody know?

[Atomic Robot]

Originally posted by Scoobaroo

What "counter measures" were taken in late '01?

Improved gasket? Different head bolt torque?

Different block and head design?

 

Anybody know?

 

I don't know, but the fact that '02 owners are still complaining about coolant leaks pretty much shows that the "fix" wasn't very effective.

 

 

Although, I guess they're saying that those were manufactured in '01...

[K9Leader]

Yep, this is what they did for me this week. My 2000 OBW Ltd. with 44K miles went in for the coolant leaking from the head gasket at the #4 cylinder on Monday.

 

Although the dealership initially said they would replace the head gaskets, they instead used some sort of Subaru-branded "coolant conditioner." The service manager swears that it's not just another stop leak (although it sure sounds like it).

 

The turning point from gasket replacement to the additive was when the service manager spoke to the district rep (or something like that), who touted this as the solution rather than gasket replacement. By the time I found out about it, it was already done. They did agree to extend the warranty on any gasket-related problems to 100K miles and that is clearly stated on the receipt.

 

On the one hand, I am dubious about a stop leak type product being used and I wish they had spoken to me before doing it. I am also skeptical whenever the preferred and pushed warranty repair is the cheapest and easiest one available.

 

On the other hand, I still have a year/16K miles left on the regular powertrain warranty and, with the extended warranty, 56K on the gaskets, so if the problem resurfaces, I can probably get it resolved. Also, replacing the gaskets means major disassembly/reassembly work, with potential for . . . well, errors.

 

The leaking has stopped -- no coolant odor, no drips or puddles, no decrease of coolant level. So, if this stuff really works, and does no damage to other components (radiator?), then I'm okay with it as the fix. It helps a lot now that I know it is an official Subaru policy and not just an off-the-cuff deal the service manager and district rep offered just to me.

 

--K9Leader, Newark DE

[Scoobaroo]

Originally posted by K9Leader

The turning point from gasket replacement to the additive was when the service manager spoke to the district rep (or something like that), who touted this as the solution rather than gasket replacement. By the time I found out about it, it was already done. They did agree to extend the warranty on any gasket-related problems to 100K miles and that is clearly stated on the receipt.

 

 

What happens when the stop leak stuff fails at 105K miles?

They'll tell you that you're S.O.L. when in fact you should have had new, redesigned gaskets for free at 44k, not stop leak.

 

Folks, this is disturbing. They'll be adding this stuff to your radiator without your knowledge when you take your cars in for unrelated service just as a preventative measure so that people won't complain about the external leaks until after 80k or 100k miles. It's cheaper for them to dump a $5 can of sealer into your cooling system for free than it would be to replace your head gaskets for six or seven hundred dollars per car.

 

There's no way to "condition" coolant so that it won't leak out of a failed head gasket. There has to be a stop leak type sealer in this new mystery additive.

[howards11]

Does this apply to the 2000 Forester or just Outbacks ?

 

 

~Howard

[tacode]

Who exactly is eligible for this warrenty extention? I had a head gasket replaced around 42k under warrenty on my 99 Forester. Now at 71k, it's happening again. The passenger side seems to be leaking - I can see anti-freeze underneath. Am I SOL as far as Subaru is concerned?

 

As far as not replacing the gasket, but rather adding a "sealent" does sound questionable. Seems like Subaru of America is using GM's playbook.

 

I plan on calling my Sube dealer on Monday, but I'm wondering what kind of resistance I can expect.

[1 Lucky Texan]

How do keep 'em from putting that stuff in my H6 ?

[MTX sub]

My dad had logged on and I posted on his computer previously as Alan Phillips.

 

Dealership said that they did not have the stop leak and only had the recent memo. I asked about my mileage being 96 thousand and the guy seemed to feel that I would not get the extention to 100k. I asked him if I would then have to pay for the glorified stop leak aka conditioner and he was not sure. Took my name and number down and said he would get back to me.

[PAezb]

Interesting discussion on HGs (again) - I'd like to ask a couple of questions regarding all this:

 

First, what are the disadvantages of using a "stop leak" aka "conditioner", to the coolant? I've never had issues with HGs on any vehicle I've owned before (lucky I guess). Is it considered a temporary fix? Can it clog or harm other components in the cooling system?

 

Second, while I agree with others who have commented that forums like this one, and the many others on the web, tend to magnify problems like these, Subaru's new directive does acknowledge that there is an ongoing problem with the HGs. It sure would be nice to know how many vehicles (actual numbers) are affected. So where do consumers go (in the U.S.) to report these issues so that someone is keeping score in case the numbers get high enough for the Federal Government steps in or a class action takes place?

 

I'm reminded of the fiasco that Toyota is going through with "oil sludge" problems in certain model year engines. The problem was so extensive in numbers that Toyota appears to be taking care of it's customers, no questions asked, rather than damage their reputation and future sales. I have no doubt that the number of Subaru HGs issues is much smaller, percentage wise. Makes me wonder when will this problem be serious enough, that Subaru will simple bite the bullet and offer to cover the HGs indefinitly.

 

--------

Since no other posts have appeared, I'll append the following link from Edmunds.com with some addition/interesting discussions on the HG issue:

 

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX?14@231.wMMwcIuIjYB.4@.ef0d013/2598

[Atomic Robot]

Here are my concerns about the whole coolant conditioner "fix"...

 

1) If you take your car to different dealers for service as I do, will each of them be dumping magic goo into your cooling system? I know the dealers check the SOA database, but how up-to-date is it? Plus, if they're doing it "on the sly" then you aren't even sure what's going on with your own car.

 

2) They're putting the burden on me to keep extra conditioner around in case I have to replace the coolant. What if I'm on a trip and my water pump goes and there's no dealer around to do the repair? Do I keep it in the glove box at all times?

 

3) Will conditioner be supplied free of charge whenever I want it? If this is a warranty issue then the additive shoud be free, right?

 

4) THE BIG ONE... What if the conditioner clogs up my radiator or otherwise wrecks something in the engine? Only the head gasket is covered under the new warranty so I'm guessing that I'd be picking up the tab on anything else that goes bad.

 

Maybe this all seems like petty pissing and moaning 'cause it's got me in a bad mood here, but it already seems that I've been lied to by the dealer on this issue when they said my cooling system pressure tested OK. How could that be the case if I'm losing coolant? My conclusion is that either they lied or didn't test it properly.

[gbhrps]

Took my 02 OBW (58 000 km) in for coolant leak on Saturday and they found both banks leaking slightly. They are going to replace both head gaskets under warranty.

[joybell]

I don't think SOC has the Subaru Super Glue, only SOA. I'll find out when I take my Forester in this week. When was your 02 manufactured?

[cookie]

I wonder if SOC does not have the sealer because they don't have enough yet, or because they have not proven it to work for Canadian winters.

It would probably be a lot easier to seal an engine in a mild climate like here in SF than Alberta.

I like the idea of changing the gaskets better than the sealer, but if my last year's gaskets leak again I will certainly try the sealer.

Good on your dealer for the gasket job!

[tacode]

My '99 Forester is going to the dealer tomorrow to determine if the HG's are failing again. When they were replaced at 42k, I was losing large amounts of coolent and the temp needle would bury itself and then drop depending on the road. This time, at 71k, I just smell the coolent and see a spray pattern on the underside of the engine cover (passenger side). The level in the expansion bottle does not seem to have changed much.

 

Out of curiosity, for those of you you who have had HG's replaced once already, has it reoccured every 30k-35k, or so?

[Scoobaroo]

Originally posted by PAezb

First, what are the disadvantages of using a "stop leak" aka "conditioner", to the coolant? I've never had issues with HGs on any vehicle I've owned before (lucky I guess). Is it considered a temporary fix? Can it clog or harm other components in the cooling system?

 

 

The disagvantage is that it is a cheap, band-aid, temporary solution

to an expensive problem. Subaru hopes that by dumping a $5 can of "conditioner" (aka sealer) into your engine that they can escape shelling out $600-$800 to replace your head gaskets until your car is out of warranty.

 

Maybe I am over reacting. I don't have any HG problems yet, but I feel that when we have a HG failure, we are entitled to re-engineered gaskets that will last the life of the car at Subaru's expense; not a can of sealer.

[Pillowsplat]

I go in tomorrow for a check. Don't think the newer head gaskets are any better. I hope the sealant works cause I really like this car.

Mileage 37,600 miles. I noticed that I was right on the low line in the reservor at my 30,000 check up. So it has been documented. The car is a year and a day old. Subaru has been very good correcting any problems. I will update. We have had a cold snap in Maryland. Snow too OBW is great in snow. Very predictable under power. A little front push while turning. I know slow down!

John

[K9Leader]

Originally posted by Scoobaroo

Subaru hopes that by dumping a $5 can of "conditioner" (aka sealer) into your engine that they can escape shelling out $600-$800 to replace your head gaskets until your car is out of warranty.

 

However, offering to extend the warranty to 8 years/100K miles does show good faith on Subaru's part and indicates a high level of confidence that it will work. If this really does fix the problem and does no damage to other components, then I have no problem:

 

--Every $600-800 head gasket repair under warranty will show itself in the higher sticker price of the next Subaru I buy.

 

--The head gasket replacement is a major job, and who knows what else could be screwed up, continuing the problem or creating new ones. Yes, I know all mechanics should be competent and do the job perfectly every time. But this is the real world. Just as major surgery is the last resort to other less invasive treatments . . .

 

--I had the car back in a day instead of in three or four or however long it would have taken to get the parts in and do the job.

 

My initial reservations were that, when it was explained to me, the service manager didn't tell me that this was an official Subaru thing and that I would get a letter officially extending the warranty. It sounded like it was a deal that he and the district rep were offering just to me and in just this one instance. Even though I got it in writing on the receipt, I was a little concerned that if there were a problem down the road no other Subaru dealership would honor it or, even, that this dealership would renege on the basis of "it's not in our records" and/or "he didn't have the authority" and/or "he hasn't worked here in X years and we don't honor anything he promised anymore."

 

If it is an official Subaru of America policy/program, I am confident that is unlikely to happen. I am willing to give it a try.

 

--K9Leader

[theotherskip]

i agree that it is nice to extend the warranty for those with the phase II engines, but what about all the failures on the phase I engines? those head gaskets failed and would leak internally, rather than externally, with the potential to cause many more problems. this stop leak just seems like an effort by subaru to nurse these cars along until they are out of warranty...

[Atomic Robot]

Just a follow up...

 

This morning my wife called me at work to let me know that I left a small puddle of coolant on the garage floor, which prompted me to call dealer service about the status of the warranty extension; my '01 Outback is at 68K mi and is therefore no longer covered by the original drivetrain warranty.

 

They were informed by their Subaru rep that we are still 1 to 2 weeks away from an official solution, but it will probably be what was previously discussed here: for small leaks, they would first try to fix with coolant additive and if that failed, they'd replace the head gasket. If the leak is severe, they'd go straight to repacement of the gasket. They're going to call me as soon as they get the official word.

 

I'm in a pretty bad place at the moment because I don't know if I'm going to make it another couple of weeks. I'm watching my temperature gauge closely and haven't had any fluctuations so far. I'm also going to be checking my coolant level every day until I can get this taken care of.

 

Good luck, everybody.