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Bolt-in EA series Alternator upgrade. Nissan Maxima alt installation guide.


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214 replies to this topic

#201 BEECHBM69

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 09:29 AM

 

http://iasca.com/dow...3 full page.pdf

You need to fuse anything within 18" of the battery. So one can naturally infer that anything that is within 18" is safe by these standards. So one can assume that anything under 18" doesn't need to be fused. Further to back this up, the Note on the bottom of page 12 states that between batteries if the wire is 18" or under, there does not need to be a fuse. 

 

All due respect, I don't agree with your interpretation. From your link:

 

"All system power wires connected to any positive battery post (or terminal) must be fused within 18 inches of wire length from the battery post (terminal) and prior to the power cable's first pass through any sheet metal or other conductive material. The term “wire length” indicates the complete wire, from tip to tip, inclusive of wire inside the fuse holder and battery terminal. If there is no fuse

present or the fusing is located beyond 18 inches or 46 centimeters of wire length, or after the power wire passes through sheet metal, the score will be zero."

 

Nowhere does it say one is not required. It simply states it has to be within 18 inches. 

 

The other section about batteries:

 

Banks of batteries located within 18 inches of wire length between each other may be evaluated as one battery and the wire between them need not be fused. Factory dual battery systems (usually found on larger diesel powered vehicles) often do not have factory-installed protection between batteries. - Additional protection is not required in these cases, unless the cable between the batteries has been upgraded.


I guess everybody should read the information and draw their own conclusions. Mine didn't jive with yours. 

 

Dan

 

 



#202 eulogious

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 02:06 PM

How do you not come to the conclusion that 18" or less of wire does not need to be fused?  It's the rule.  Otherwise it would be different, like I mentioned.  How do you not come to this same conclusion?  What other conclusion is there?  Correct, it does not say explicitly that a fuse is not needed, but what other conclusion can you come to as long as it's within 18"?  Please explain this to me, as I am clearly missing it.

 

Regardless, I am now going to try a different approach, math, to prove that it is totally safe to not fuse something within 18".  Well, I am not going to do all the math myself, but I will link to a calculator that does the math for me.  This is just one of many out on the net, but the math is sound.

 

http://www.bulkwire....eresistance.asp

 

So according to this calculator, in my car where I have an UNFUSED 18" 4awg wire, I can pass 1400 amps at 13.85v DC down that wire.  1400 amps.  And at 1400 amps, I only loose 4% of the voltage.  That's not even talking about where the wire will got hot and catch on fire.  That is WAY more that then 600 amps my battery puts out when it was brand new and also WAY more than what my alt puts out.  So because the 18" piece of wire can handle WAY more power than what ANYTHING in my car can put out, I am TOTALLY safe and I will NOT cause any fires.  Period.  I DO NOT need a fuse.  Not only are there industry standards that say I don't need a fuse within 18", the math also proves this. 

 

The one caveat to this is that you are using good quality, properly sized wire.  If you are not using the right size wire, all bets are off.  In my case I am using a properly sized, good quality wire, so I am totally safe.  I WILL NOT CAUSE ANY FIRES OR ANY OTHER SORT OF HARM TO MY CAR.  Period.

 

Now, I keep saying this and everyone keeps missing it it seems, but it DOES NOT HURT TO FUSE.  At all.  Fuses are good!  Fuse away if you feel the need.  All I am trying to get across is that it is NOT a safety issue, it is NOT a fire issue, and it will NOT hurt anything if you don't fuse a wire that is 18" or less.  That is all.  I am just giving factual information.  And I can't stress enough that fuses are good!

 

Now about fusing the wire only and not the devices...  I am going to use an example that everyone has in their home to prove that it is industry standard to fuse the wire, not the device.  Just walk over to your breaker panel in your home/apt and take a look.  All of those breakers are NOT fusing ANY devices at all. NONE.  I don't know about you, but I do not have ANY device in my house that will draw 15amps.  The most I have is something that draws 13 amps.  So how does a 15 amp breaker protect a device that only draws 13 amps?  What about my phone charge that only draws 1 amp, how does that 15 amp break protect it?  It doesn't and it simply can't.  It ONLY protects the wiring.  This is industry standard.  But just for kicks and giggles, here's a link saying the same thing:

 

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/wfc2.htm

 

1st paragraph states the same thing.  And this was basically the first google link.  I could find more links, but it's not really needed to prove my point.  Just google it for yourself.  AC, DC, 12v, 480v, it doesn't matter.  You fuse based off of the wire, nothing else.

 

I don't correct someone on a forum unless I know and can prove that I am right, like I just did.  I don't really care what people think, or feel, or what they do for a living, or really what experiences they have had.  That means nothing compared to actual facts and math and things that are provable.  So lets please stay focused on facts and math and leave opinions, experience, and emotions out of this debate.


Edited by eulogious, 31 December 2013 - 02:15 PM.


#203 BEECHBM69

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 05:47 PM

How do you not come to the conclusion that 18" or less of wire does not need to be fused?  It's the rule.  Otherwise it would be different, like I mentioned.  How do you not come to this same conclusion?  What other conclusion is there?  Correct, it does not say explicitly that a fuse is not needed, but what other conclusion can you come to as long as it's within 18"?  Please explain this to me, as I am clearly missing it.


It says very clearly "if there is no fuse present OR fusing is located beyond 18 inches....." you get no points.

I don't know electrical theory, so everything else you say in support of your position seems legit enough to me, and I'm not attmpting to disprove it. I do know English, and this doesn't say what you want it to say.

And that's all I said, or will say.

Dan

#204 eulogious

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:38 PM

It says very clearly "if there is no fuse present OR fusing is located beyond 18 inches....." you get no points.
I don't know electrical theory, so everything else you say in support of your position seems legit enough to me, and I'm not attmpting to disprove it. I do know English, and this doesn't say what you want it to say.
And that's all I said, or will say.
Dan

Well, you got me there, if I was actually debating the rules, but I am not. I merely used these rules to prove my point. The Note at the bottom of the page clearly states that no fuse is needed between batteries if the wire length is under 18". The whole reason I used the rules was to merely illustrate that the standards say that no fuse is needed as long as the wire length is under 18", and they do clearly state that. In english clear as day, and you quoted it early as well. If 0 points meant that a fire would start, sure then you take what that says and apply it to this debate, but 0 points does not mean any safety measures have been broken, it just means you won't get any points for judging, that's it. There is no need to read anymore into that statement. If you got disqualified because it was a safety issue, then I could understand, but it doesn't. In fact you could still win the competition in theory, even without a fuse.

You can interpret that however you want, but at the end of the day, 18" or less does not need a fuse which is clearly stated in the note section of the rules page. No other way to read that. Very first sentence of the note. Here's the quote:

NOTE:
Banks of batteries located within 18 inches of wire length between each other may be evaluated as one battery and the wire between them need not be fused.

Seems like pretty straight forward english to me...

Edited by eulogious, 31 December 2013 - 06:41 PM.


#205 eulogious

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:53 PM

I guess it should also say not to take what I am saying personally. I mean nothing personal at all against anyone. I am just debating, so sorry if I come across as an rump roast, that's not my intention. Just wanted to clarify that...

EDIT: rump roast? LOL, I totally used another word for that. That's just funny.

Edited by eulogious, 31 December 2013 - 06:55 PM.


#206 coxy

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 03:32 AM

Here is my Bible when it comes to wiring, CASA are even tougher than their American counterparts and the section (17 from memory) on aged wiring is very useful reading.

 

This links to a roughly 18 Meg pdf you can save for future reference, Yes it is Aircraft spec but if you want to really know what works and what fails and how to prevent it the guys that cannot just pull to the side of the trail when something goes wrong are the standard bearers end of story.

 

http://www.casa.gov..../021/021c99.pdf



#207 NorthWet

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 01:03 PM

The 18 inch thing is almost certainly NOT an electrical consideration per say, but rather a practical, mechanical consideration. The longer the length of a piece of wiring, the more likely it is to come in unsecured contact with an object that might cause physical damage to the insulation, thus causing a potential for shorting out the wire. 

 

A fused circuit becomes more critical as the potential for abnormal current flow increases... as in, shorting a power wire to ground.

 

Cheers!



#208 NorthWet

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 01:05 PM

BTW, I LOVE the Maxima alternator in my XT.  No messing with the pulley at all.



#209 Subaru_dude

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 06:21 PM

I did the upgrade today too. Note: You cannot use the alternator nut for the Maxima, you have to use the Subaru nut. Also you might want to look up how to remove the plastic plug from the spade connectors. I literally had to cut mine off, so I won't be reinstalling the stock alternator anytime soon. Another note, not sure how much it matters but I could NOT get that spacer completely flat. I used a belt sander and got it a pretty consistent 5/16ths all the way around but it's still pretty wobbly, but that could also be due to the fact that the pulley has some play on the shaft and it's nearly impossible to hold it center while you're hitting it with an impact.


Edited by Subaru_dude, 21 January 2014 - 06:22 PM.


#210 skishop69

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 12:20 AM

Ok, I don't know why this is still going on. You want to believe stereo competition rules for wiring accessories on your car? Go for it. They don't have a damn clue about the overall system I guarantee. Manufacturers have fuses at the front side of every circuit because it is LEGALLY mandated for safety. I don't give a rats a** if your device is already fused. If you think it's going to stop a wire from melting if it shorts out, you're DEAD WRONG. The fuse protects the device itself from internal shorts or overloads. It does nothing to protect wire coming into the device. You should fuse ANY positive circuit within 2"-3" of it's voltage source to properly protect against shorting, wire melting and possible fire. That being said.... and pay attention to this boys and girls.....

 

 

When adding the extra wire from the alt to the battery which you should do for SAFETY reasons, you need to install a 100A slow blow (thank you for clarifying this GLoyale as I did not... my bad) fuse on the battery side of the circuit. Should there be a short in a battery cable, the battery itself or elsewhere, the circuit is rendered safe. PERIOD

 

 

This is not speculation, hypothesis or my opinion. It is fact. I have a degree in electronics and have been doing this for over 20 years with more hands on training and continuing ed classes than I can count. I've ran more miles of wiring than anyone here and have NEVER had a wiring related failure. I work on 360v electric cars and hybrids that will KILL you if you don't follow the rules. You don't want to believe me, fine. Check out motor vehicle safety regulations. Not regulations written by some bass pumping, I can blow my windows out moron who thinks he 'knows' the physics and safety of wiring a motor vehicle. You wanna listen to that pile of misinformation, fine.... burn your car down. Not my problem, my car, or my lawsuit and prison time should something go wrong.



#211 eulogious

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 01:06 AM

Ok, I don't know why this is still going on. You want to believe stereo competition rules for wiring accessories on your car? Go for it. They don't have a damn clue about the overall system I guarantee. Manufacturers have fuses at the front side of every circuit because it is LEGALLY mandated for safety. I don't give a rats a** if your device is already fused. If you think it's going to stop a wire from melting if it shorts out, you're DEAD WRONG. The fuse protects the device itself from internal shorts or overloads. It does nothing to protect wire coming into the device. You should fuse ANY positive circuit within 2"-3" of it's voltage source to properly protect against shorting, wire melting and possible fire. That being said.... and pay attention to this boys and girls.....

 

 

When adding the extra wire from the alt to the battery which you should do for SAFETY reasons, you need to install a 100A slow blow (thank you for clarifying this GLoyale as I did not... my bad) fuse on the battery side of the circuit. Should there be a short in a battery cable, the battery itself or elsewhere, the circuit is rendered safe. PERIOD

 

 

This is not speculation, hypothesis or my opinion. It is fact. I have a degree in electronics and have been doing this for over 20 years with more hands on training and continuing ed classes than I can count. I've ran more miles of wiring than anyone here and have NEVER had a wiring related failure. I work on 360v electric cars and hybrids that will KILL you if you don't follow the rules. You don't want to believe me, fine. Check out motor vehicle safety regulations. Not regulations written by some bass pumping, I can blow my windows out moron who thinks he 'knows' the physics and safety of wiring a motor vehicle. You wanna listen to that pile of misinformation, fine.... burn your car down. Not my problem, my car, or my lawsuit and prison time should something go wrong.

 

Ok, did you not read my fuse statement that I have made three times now?  YES, IT DOESN'T HURT TO FUSE IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER.  There I have now said that four times.  But it is NOT, I repeat NOT needed if the run of wire is of the correct size AWG and is under 18", the math proves this.  No way to get around math man.  Fight it all you want, but math will win.  Not too mention several other standards committees, one of which I linked to in an early post.

 

On the fusing front...  You are saying that my house, and EVERY SINGLE HOUSE IN THE COUNTRY, is wired wrong and that I need to have a separate breaker for every single device that's plugged into my house?  Really?  I need like 45 new breakers!!!  WHY DID I NOT KNOW THIS BEFORE!!!!  MY HOUSE IS GOING TO BURN DOWN!!! AHHHH!!!!!  Ya, not so much, lol.  Please explain this to me as what you are saying contradicts the simple fact that all houses are fused for the wire, not the device.  This principal carries forward for AC or DC and any voltage that you want.  And yes, even to car manufactures.

 

Oh, and for the love of all that is holy STOP telling us your background and what you do for a living like it makes you an expert and we should all just shut up and bow down to you because you are the wiring god.  It's really not needed.  Just back up what you are saying with proof, because what you do for a living and your education really means nothing compared to national standards and math.  So just stop using that argument, it's getting old hearing it.  Notice I have yet to say what my background is or what my education is?  Wanna now why?  BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER.  If its a fact, it can be proven without me having to bring up my background and what I do for a living, just like I have done in my previous post.

 

I have now grown tired of arguing this, so I am going to stop cluttering up this thread.  I have proved what I needed to regarding fusing and wiring runs, so this will be the last from me on this subject.  Proof is in the pudding.



#212 skishop69

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:34 AM

Take any size wire you want, wire it to a car battery, short it directly and see what happens. I did read the link. They are talking load protection, not short circuit protection and while the two are related, they are different in terms of calculations and methods of protection. Northwet was correct. 18" is NOT and electrical consideration. It's an arbitrary number they picked. Math does lie especially when one does not take into account thermal dynamics and wire quality. And your house is wired correctly and falls under a whole separate set of rules. The breakers will trip in the event of a short on the circuit whether it is the device or the wiring. The are the first thing in the circuit and are rated for the load of the wiring which dictates the load you can put on the circuit. That's why if you run 14-2 in your house, you can only use a max breaker of 15A. Step up to 12-2 and you can use a 20A breaker.

 

We are talking safety here for the protection of a short to ground on a high amperage circuit of a moving vehicle with vibrations and any number of places a wire can short out. Not something sitting still. Safety. Every time I'm right and I know it, I have to waste time digging up crap to appease those that think they are. Let's see, the O2 discussion comes to mind, the driveline angle discussion.... I'm not wasting more time for this. Our field engineer would love to post, but he's laughing too hard to type.....

 

Btw, when I said bass pumping, I can blow my windows out moron, I was not referring to you, but those that wrote the 'safety rules'.

 

Utilizing their 'guidelines' for stereo wire in competition for the definitive word on automotive wiring is like saying, "I'm going to build a skyscraper! Let's go see what the big book of building with Legos says."

 

End of line... *


Edited by skishop69, 22 January 2014 - 02:00 PM.


#213 Tofutti

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 09:51 PM

Just put a fuse-block/ separate fuses/ fusible link in on each extra line you run from the Bat to your Accessories and call it a day. No harm in extra protection (even if it turns out you don't need it..) (Hell, even toss a fuse in after the new alt to the battery.) . Besides, it'll cost like, maybe 30 bucks for a fuse block with 4 100-amp circuits, so what's the big deal... Agree to disagree if you must and just put something in. Surely all the time we all spent reading and responding/arguing here cost us more than $30 of our time, since we're all electrical professionals..  If you KNOW you don't need to add fuses/blocks/fusible links, then don't. If you're not sure, then do it; it's cheap insurance. Just stop freakin' arguing already. No harm will come either way.    /rant



#214 l75eya

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:26 PM

Just keep a fire extinguisher in your car and call it a day. :headbang:  lolol :Flame:



#215 turbosubarubrat

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 11:48 PM

Did the swap today on my 86 hatchback with a ea81 and no ac. I got my alt. off a 93 maxima it must of been the dohc since all the connections were on the back and I had to make a bracket because the factory one was way off. I used part of a ea82 bracket and a piece of 1/4 inch scrap metal with a hole I drilled in it and i mig welded the two pieces together. Ran it for a little bit and I'm happy with it since it doesn't drop below 12v now compared to the old craptachi which wasn't even charging the battery so you would have to jump start it or put a charger on every time I wanted to start her up since I got it running again on 4 cylinder yesterday with a spare motor. I'm going to put on the extra wire from battery to alt. tomorrow with fuse to be on the safe side before I start running around with it.




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