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Guest Message by DevFuse
 

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No Rear Wheel Drive?


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16 replies to this topic

#1 Bbob

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:18 PM

1995 Legacy L 162,000 miles

All operates OK - Trans slips until it pumps up (20 sec) then does well.
Changed trans fluid to Honda like synthetic in 2007.
Have noticed through 2008 that the front tires squeal when signals change to green.
This didn't seem right for AWD to me.
<img src=http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww257/buillder/00JSubaruAWD001.jpg><p>
<p>

Now it won't hardly pull my boat out of the driveway. (14ft. 40hp)
Almost burned a tire up at the lowest RPM. (would barely inch up)
I had it in "L" at the time.
We do not have an independent Subaru shop here in Nashville.
There is a fuse missing in a single receptical near rt. hood hinge in AWD circuit.

What is a possible fix?

#2 grossgary

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:22 PM

That fuse is supposed to be missing. That's to force the trans into FWD mode. Leave it empty.

Sounds like your transmission is on the way out. But of course we'd like to check to be sure.

Back in the early 90's there was some recall with the transmission...required installing an external filter or something? I would look up that TSB or info here about that to see if yours fits the bill.

how did you change the transmission fluid? Did you drain and fill? If so, that's not nearly enough to actually remove the old fluid as it only gets about 1/3 of the fluid out.

AWD transmissions need fluid changed frequently - at 162,000 it should have been completely changed a few times by now. Tires need to all match in tread depth and be rotated frequently. Not doing these things reduces the life of your trans.

#3 Bbob

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:26 PM

Yes fluid changed 3 times. (pan off)
New set of tires.

#4 Bbob

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:33 PM

Fuse was put in 3 days in 2007 out of confusion.
Car has been run HARD the last 90K miles.

#5 Durania

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 09:39 PM

Greetings from Crossville. (To your East)

There is an independent Subaru shop in Clinton, TN if you are interested.

#6 grossgary

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 09:57 PM

Fuse was put in 3 days in 2007 out of confusion

yeah it's not a big deal actually, they can essentially run indefinitely like that, just disables the Duty C solenoid and runs FWD and there's literally no difference between Subaru FWD and AWD trans, i mean there are but you can actually convert one to the other. The fuse would cause problems trying to diagnose AWD issues so that's why I say don't use it!:lol:

Car has been run HARD the last 90K miles.

ah ha, Bob stole the cookie from the cookie jar! The truth comes out! I believe my first guess is sounding more and more likely.

Sounds like your transmission is on the way out.


Sounds like AWD is not working at all. Either the duty C/clutches are completely shot - or given how hard you drive it the rear clutch hub/gear thinga-ma-bob (pun intended) is broken. They can be replaced without dropping the trans. Actually the entire 4WD set up in the rear transfer housing can be replaced without dropping the trans - clutch discs, Duty C (controls line pressure) and this hub/gear thing.

For future reference pulling the pan is not necessary for draining the fluid. Actually it's not necessary for anything. If you messed with the "filter" (which is futile, since it's not really a "filter" but a screen) then that could be the problem. The rubber oring may not be seated right reducing all of your line pressures.

But my guess is it's just hosed. Get a used trans, they're reliable enough that they're a dime a dozen because demand is low (meaning they don't fail all that often).

You could unplug the transmission wiring harness and see what happens. It's default is fully *locked* 4WD and 3rd gear, I've driven a daily driver like this before for a very long time including highway...everything, daily driver duties. It'll run fine, just a bit slow on take off, so it'll be like driving and 80's Subaru!:lol:

#7 Bbob

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 10:22 PM

I have changed out a few transmissions.

The problem is finding one with this narrow of an interchange.

As I understand not many trans will fit this car....and all ebay transmissions come with fantasy mileage.

What is Duty C?. Special tools needed for clutches in the tailshaft?

Parts from the dealer cost more than a Mercedes.
I need this to pull up a 28 degree driveway so FWD is not my option.

#8 Bbob

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 10:24 PM

See my problem;

http://i725.photobuc...ubaruAWD001.jpg

#9 grossgary

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 10:30 PM

I'm on dial up so no pic's.

Yeah all that rear stuff is all easily doable with regular tools and without even dropping the trans, just a couple hours. But sounds like your trans is hosed, pointless it seems to fix the 4WD on a slipping and erratic transmission.

1995 Legacy - you should be able to use any 1991-1998 legacy or impreza transmission. Just make sure the final drives match (legacy outback's and any EJ25's for that matter probably won't work as they are 4.44 final drive). Yours will be 4.11.

Subaru 4EAT transmissions changed very little over the years. An impreza/legacy transmission can even work in the older generation stuff if you just convert the plugs which they changed. Bellhousings differ, but that's just bolt holes, everything else is nearly identical.

#10 Bbob

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 07:47 PM

Please, what is EJ25?

What is Duty C ?

This trans does not slip at all after the first start in the morning.

#11 1-3-2-4

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 08:36 PM

Please, what is EJ25?

What is Duty C ?

This trans does not slip at all after the first start in the morning.


THE EJ25 is a engine code for the 2.5L engine

Duty C is a solenoid that controls transferring power to the rear by hydraulic fluid.

#12 johnceggleston

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 09:50 AM

Please, what is EJ25?

What is Duty C ?

This trans does not slip at all after the first start in the morning.



it sounds like you have 2 problems, AWD does not engage and a trans that is slipping.

the all wheel drive problem is repairable at the dealer for around 1000$ or do it yourself for less.

the slipping trans is another issue altogether. it probably is the first sign of a doomed trans. you can try new fluid, and i hope it works, but unless there is a temporary condition that has not caused damage to the trans, it's probably on the way out.

there is a known 'slow to engage' problem with the 99 auto trans which has responded well to the TRANS-X fluid additive but i have never heard of it helping other years or problems. but for 25$, new fluid and a bottle of trans-x, it may be worth trying. but i wouldn't expect much.

#13 wtdash

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 09:54 AM

chech out this link...it'll give you a good idea on how to R&R the transfer clutches:
http://www.ultimates...ood torque bind


I had a delay on my AWD engagement, followed the above info and it was 95% fixed. Still get torque bind (SEARCH) every once in awhile, but no delay.

Good luck,
TD

#14 Subaru_dude

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 12:27 PM

Hey from Morristown (also East from you). There is a '96 model Legacy in the Pull-a-part in Knoxville. I could check it out on my next trip there for you and get the mileage, condition etc.

#15 polychromeugand

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 06:23 PM

In the hope that the "slipping transmission" pundit will either show some expertise or back off a little - one of my two 1992 EJ22 AWD Legacy Wagons has a similar symptom. It drives generally correctly, but while the engine seems to perform the same as its twin, the power doesn't get to the wheels quite the same if you floor it up a steep grade, and either matching the tachometer to speedometer of the highway fuel economy indicate that the torque converter isn't really locking up at highway speed.

(For history buffs, I bought both of these cars new on the same day late in November 1991. They have 145,000 and 165,000 miles, the problem is the 165,000. The transmission filters have been changed in the last 20,000 miles, and they got a full fluid purge that time rather than just the 4 quarts in the pan. These had 100,000 mile warranties and Subaru dealer service to about 105,000 and ran most of their miles in the 20th century before becoming the family's extra cars. From looking at old records, they both had regular transmission fluid changes and at least 2 transmission filters each. Neither vehicle has an external transmission fluid filter.)

I did the transmission self-diagnostic shift lever line dance and the flashing oracle swore everything was good to go. Clearly, the ability to deny reality isn't restricted to intelligent life... I don't have a subaru select monitor, so I can't give you any of the values or verify the TCU is really using the speed sensors, etc.

The Stall Speed settles at just about 2750 RPM for all selector positions. (that's the one with the left foot on the brake, and the right foot on the gas).

The Shift Delay test is obviously well over 1.2 seconds (20s cold, 3 thereafter) for D and well over 1.5 seconds for R (20s cold, 2s thereafter, slightly faster than D).

So I attached a transmission testing gauge set and hooked it up just as seen in Section 3.2 to check the transmission line pressure. It was impressively low. Something close to 15PSI in all positions at 750RPM, and between 94 and 110 PSI at stall speed. The stall speed numbers were varying by selector position, with R highest at 110, then 3 at 104, 2 at 98 , and 1 and D both 94.
The service manual indicates those would be good numbers at idle. It enough of a hassle to

At this point I assume the problem is either 1) worn oil pump vanes, 2) Duty Solenoid A which mudulates the secondary pressure regulator, or 3) a blown out O-ring at line pressure perhaps on one of the little cross-over pipes that has to come off to change the transmission filter, and probably not one leading to the R circuit.

Conversely, I think its unlikely the problem is anything to do with the truly expensive slipping disasters - the torque converter, or one of the bands, or worn gears, etc.

So... does anyone have any experience doing anything about this other than A) adding a quart of "hope in a bottle" or B) getting another 4EAT from the scrap yard. (BTW in MA 92's seem to be down to just 1 yard east of the CT river)

#16 Log1call

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 10:04 PM

Yup.

I've seen the valve bodies come loose. Get underneath, off with the pan and filter, tighten all the heaps of bolts to torque and they come right sometimes. If you want to be really thorough you could drop the valve body , dismantle it, take the (probably) damaged gaskets out then put it back together(without gaskets,it will be fine) tightening all the bolts at the top and the bottom.

If the first start and into gear of the day has a big delay, then ok after that, that's a sign the valve body is loose and draining over night. If the first or first few have about the right delay then the delay gets worse with a warm up, I'd suspect the pump or bushes/seals or worn valve body. If it's only one gear that's slow then some worn clutches, if it's all of them then bad pressure.

Since all your pressures are low I'd check them cold and through a few quick changes, then I'd warm it and repeat the tests to see if it's temperature or just filling everything up that makes the difference.

Oh, and congratulations on being the first person on here to have ever put a gauge on their transmission.

If anybody is interested in how to diagnose a transmission, there is a pdf called 4EAT_performance_test.zip here.... http://www.main.expe...cans/FSM_Scans/

#17 polychromeugand

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 09:06 AM

Just thought I'd follow up as where I ended up so far. Now that I can test the transmission cold (25F or -3C). The pump pressures when very cold are more than double the hot values, and the time delay is negligable for all shifts. This is slightly less meaningful than it sounds, because the idle RPM is 1500 immediately after the cold start, and drops to 800 long before the transmission fluid is hot. Comparing pump pressures at 1500 RPM cold and hot gives a ratio more like 1.35 or 1.40, which matches the changing fluid viscosity.

If I track it as the RPM drop and fluid warms up, any excess time delay is solely a function of line pressure. As the line pressure drops below 20PSI delay becomes apparent, and below 15PSI the delay is just about infinite for all shifts.

Just as I was about to open the ATF plug and drop the AT pan and remove the control valves and look for any obvious easy to get at o-ring or seal failures - the car lost its hanger queen status and was pressed back into regular commuter duty.

Since TransX is an extremely thick lubricant, I removed a like volume of ATF and dumped the bottle in. The only effect on line pressure was an immediate 15-20% increase that persisted. Its almost enough to raise the line presure enough to eliminate the shift delay - but not quite. What he driver experiences is that the minimum RPM to get the AT to shift was dropped from 1100 to 950, just barely above idle.

I'll add a follow up if anything useful becomes apparent when I get inside the AT. My guess is I won't see anything that's an obvoius culprit and I'll change all the rubber and paper and have no way to know if the problem was rubber or torque..




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