Just a EJ22 thought and request.

[86BRATMAN]

Your car has the fb25. It is not the same animal as the old ej series engines.

[Subagon]

I am a new to Subaru's , I am a master tech for Older VW's . 

I am putting this into a 1990 VW Vanagon .

  I have a 99 legacy ej22 phase 2 motor and a 96 legacy ej22 phase 1  , will the phase 2 have the same problems with the head gaskets as the 2.5 ?  or should I put in the  96  2.2  ?

#2  Is the timming belt kit the same ?

#3 will the heads swap back and forth ?

#4 how much of an increase in HP. between the phase 2 over the phase 1 ?

 thanks ahead of time.

--Bill

[Subagon]

 I am looking for a ECU pin-out on a 99 legacy 2.2

I cant seam to find one anyplace.

the part # on the ECU is... 22611AD63A the second # is TN(?)112000-6081

Any help would be very helpfull.

Thanks.

--Bill

[heartless]

I am a new to Subaru's , I am a master tech for Older VW's . 

I am putting this into a 1990 VW Vanagon .

  I have a 99 legacy ej22 phase 2 motor and a 96 legacy ej22 phase 1  , will the phase 2 have the same problems with the head gaskets as the 2.5 ?  or should I put in the  96  2.2  ?

#2  Is the timming belt kit the same ?

#3 will the heads swap back and forth ?

#4 how much of an increase in HP. between the phase 2 over the phase 1 ?

 thanks ahead of time.

--Bill

 

 

 I am looking for a ECU pin-out on a 99 legacy 2.2

I cant seam to find one anyplace.

the part # on the ECU is... 22611AD63A the second # is TN(?)112000-6081

Any help would be very helpfull.

Thanks.

--Bill

 

These questions would be better posted in the Transplants section: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/forum/17-subaru-transplants/

[Crash138]

Interesting, so I should keep the 2.2 in my 96 outback then...

[Nash_Rambler]

Hello everyone, just had the ej25 motor blow up on my 99 OBW, manual transmission, this past Tuesday, May 30th 2017.  The headgaskets never failed me, oddly enough, but a rod or something else internal did at 167k.  High pitched whine, sudden loss of power, and hey, I'm running on two cylinders and burning oil like a lamp.  I limped it home from the garage (3 miles) after they confirmed that no, your wish that it's merely a bad ignition module cannot be granted.  I knew it, but I had hoped I was wrong.  Still, I paid $4,000 for it in 2012, so I got my monies worth out of the car.

 

So.

 

I'm considering swapping in a newer running motor.  I can't say I've read every post connected to the 2.2 vs. 2.5 swap, but I get the gist.  2.2 is less power, but many less headaches and lower risk of failure.  Thanks for posting about car-part.com, that has been invaluable in opening up the possibility.  I've never swapped a Subaru motor before, most of my experience there has been in classic cars.  But I have the tools, the talent, the access to a chain hoist and an engine lift, and a burning desire to not have a car payment.

 

I'm going to consider my options for another couple of days, but with the body/interior/tires and transmission in good shape, I'm loathe to have it crushed.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Nash_Rambler

[suprunner]

Hello everyone, just had the ej25 motor blow up on my 99 OBW, manual transmission, this past Tuesday, May 30th 2017.  The headgaskets never failed me, oddly enough, but a rod or something else internal did at 167k.  High pitched whine, sudden loss of power, and hey, I'm running on two cylinders and burning oil like a lamp.  I limped it home from the garage (3 miles) after they confirmed that no, your wish that it's merely a bad ignition module cannot be granted.  I knew it, but I had hoped I was wrong.  Still, I paid $4,000 for it in 2012, so I got my monies worth out of the car.

 

So.

 

I'm considering swapping in a newer running motor.  I can't say I've read every post connected to the 2.2 vs. 2.5 swap, but I get the gist.  2.2 is less power, but many less headaches and lower risk of failure.  Thanks for posting about car-part.com, that has been invaluable in opening up the possibility.  I've never swapped a Subaru motor before, most of my experience there has been in classic cars.  But I have the tools, the talent, the access to a chain hoist and an engine lift, and a burning desire to not have a car payment.

 

I'm going to consider my options for another couple of days, but with the body/interior/tires and transmission in good shape, I'm loathe to have it crushed.

If you can:: refurbish the heads, find an EJ251 block from an early 2000s, 04-06 STI MLS headgaskets. I'm a poor college student, and it was WELL worth it. I think this motor should have been the stock option.

 

Greg

[86BRATMAN]

That is definitely what the ej25d should have been. I've built several of that particular combo over the years and they're a great engine.

[wtdash]

"Hello everyone, just had the ej25 motor blow up on my 99 OBW,"

 

This supposedly WAS the Phase 2  (EJ253?) engine w/earlier pistons and DOHC heads, correct? 

 

or RU both stating the EJ251 is the better choice? I thought it (251 vs 253) was just a MAP-based vs. MAF difference?

Edited June 2, 2017 by wtdash

[86BRATMAN]

Bottom end is the same between the 251, 253, and 99 25d sans pistons.

 

The benefit of the full phase 2 shortblock is being able to use the thinner phase 2 head gaskets which are not as likely to blow as the overly thick phase 1's.

 

A 25d of any flavor making it to 167k miles on original head gaskets just isn't a thing. They were most likely replaced before you took ownership of the vehicle.

[GeneralDisorder]

A 25d of any flavor making it to 167k miles on original head gaskets just isn't a thing. They were most likely replaced before you took ownership of the vehicle.

I have seen it. I agree it's rare though. But I once bought a 97 OBW - one owner, with every service record from a shop literally blocks from their home. Original head gaskets at about 160k. It had a burned valve in cylinder 4.

 

GD

[Mike104]

I got to 216k on my head gaskets in my 99 OBW 2.5L  definitely an outlier.  I was second owner and know they were not replaced previously.  I had a reman engine put in and so far it has lasted to 475k.  Had I known then what I know now I probably would have gone a different route.  But at the time I thought is was the best option for me.

[Nash_Rambler]

To answer some questions, yeah, it's the early phase 2 ej25d engine.  While I can't rule out that the HGs weren't replaced, the folder of service records I got from the original owner do not indicate it ever happening.  Which doesn't matter, since the motor is blown.

 

Thanks for the advice re: the swap, but I absolutely can't get into the weeds in terms of an exotic rebuild ("EJ251 block from an early 2000s, 04-06 STI MLS headgaskets").  I either need to find and swap in another motor and get this car moving again, or take a deep breath and rebuild the engine using a proven guide and a full rebuild kit.  I'm leaning away from the rebuild option, as the few kits I've found for the ej25d are ~$500, and the machine work will likely be another $400 - $600.  With 167k on the body, dropping $1,100 to make the motor fresh, only for the drive train to die on something else is a serious fear for me.  We won't even discuss the insane-o prices on a remanufactured ej25d.

 

So I think I can convince my wife to take a chance on a $400 - $750 investment in lieu of a fresh car payment, but beyond that, it's a tough sell.  $1,200 to freshen up the engine sounds better than the $4,000 - $8,000 I'd spend on a new beater, but still.  There are no easy answers here, are there.

[Nash_Rambler]

If you can:: refurbish the heads, find an EJ251 block from an early 2000s, 04-06 STI MLS headgaskets. I'm a poor college student, and it was WELL worth it. I think this motor should have been the stock option.

 

Greg

So what is the benefit vs. cost of this?  I can shop around for an ej251 block, so I'm assuming what you do is swap on the valve heads and some new gaskets and away you go.  But why bother when the valves are already tired at 167k?

[suprunner]

To answer some questions, yeah, it's the early phase 2 ej25d engine.  While I can't rule out that the HGs weren't replaced, the folder of service records I got from the original owner do not indicate it ever happening.  Which doesn't matter, since the motor is blown.

 

Thanks for the advice re: the swap, but I absolutely can't get into the weeds in terms of an exotic rebuild ("EJ251 block from an early 2000s, 04-06 STI MLS headgaskets").  I either need to find and swap in another motor and get this car moving again, or take a deep breath and rebuild the engine using a proven guide and a full rebuild kit.  I'm leaning away from the rebuild option, as the few kits I've found for the ej25d are ~$500, and the machine work will likely be another $400 - $600.  With 167k on the body, dropping $1,100 to make the motor fresh, only for the drive train to die on something else is a serious fear for me.  We won't even discuss the insane-o prices on a remanufactured ej25d.

 

So I think I can convince my wife to take a chance on a $400 - $750 investment in lieu of a fresh car payment, but beyond that, it's a tough sell.  $1,200 to freshen up the engine sounds better than the $4,000 - $8,000 I'd spend on a new beater, but still.  There are no easy answers here, are there.

I would search for a local Subaru Parts group on Facebook. There is one in Colorado, that I sourced my shortblock for $200. Guys with imprezas or RSs are always looking to get rid of the SOHC 2.5 so they can go turbo. The STI headgaskets are the same price as the regular MLS. It's not that exotic. Everything else is the same. The normal EJ25d drops out by 4500 rpm. The EJ251/D hybrid is power all the way to 6k. I'm not even using headers or any larger diameter exhaust. Fuel economy is basically the same depending on how heavy your foot is. If the transmission fails, get another high mileage one for dirt cheap. I've not seen a subaru with a blown rear diff. The universal/carrier bearing can blow, but your car is just getting broken in at that mileage. Cars are toilets for money to be thrown into, no matter how new they are. 

[suprunner]

You need to find out how tired the valves are. Take the heads off, and pour some water in the valves and see how long it takes to drain. There are many videos on the tube that can help with that. if the valves aren't trash, and the buckets/shims are in tolerance, don't do anything. If it needs work, you can do it, send it to a shop, or find a local subaru specialty shop that has a used-parts-department and see what their refurbished heads are. I bought a prettied-up set from a place called SuperRupair in Boulder, CO. I didn't have the time or space to do it. I bet they'd mail you a set if you really needed it. Cost/benefit... I've done this to my wagon, and won't go back. My girlfriend's 99 2.5D has a bad ring. I'm NOT putting another one of those back in. The hybrid motor makes the car actually functional on the roads. You can pass people on the highway. You can speed up to get out of somebody's way. You don't have to be in 3rd gear going up to through the Divide on I-70. Also, I know of a handful of guys in Denver that have these in their RS coupes and they rally them hard beating every BRZ. Still going after ten years. I usually drive like a grandma, so I hope to see this motor go for a looong time. The body will rust away first, probably. 

So what is the benefit vs. cost of this?  I can shop around for an ej251 block, so I'm assuming what you do is swap on the valve heads and some new gaskets and away you go.  But why bother when the valves are already tired at 167k?

Edited June 5, 2017 by suprunner

[GeneralDisorder]

The valves will be fine. Lap them and reset the lash.

 

Call up some wrecking yards and find a 251 that's been hit in the front and blew off the timing. You don't care if it has bent valves you won't be using the heads anyway. I usually pay $500 for blocks in this condition. Cut open the oil filter to looks for metal and check under the valve covers for varnish.

 

Swap the 7mm or 9mm oil pump to a 10.

 

Install new rings.

 

STi head gaskets.

 

Done.

 

GD

Edited June 10, 2017 by GeneralDisorder

[deezel05]

hi from Australia , the ej20 sohc is bomb proof . I have 406000 km on a bugeye and still going strong . have only serviced this car and nothing including the 4speed auto has any problem . what I am looking for is a closed deck conversion for this motor . over here they all have high kilometres and need a replacement . the ej25 sohc from our liberty / your legacy  is notorious for excess oil consumption and is an unknown quantity to fit into a 2000 to 2005 gd . it was done here by the factory early on in the gd/gg life cycle but disappeared just before  the gr turned up . I am a general and dealer motor mechanic and have never done an hg on a Subaru , good luck I expect . trying to figure out the wiring equation with the ej25 liberty conversion , complete wiring loom I expect makes it a long term research plan . you guys seem to be doing a lot of conversions with the turbo versions so it can be done . the ej series is not made now but is a known quatity and is worth keeping in the subaru lineup . now the question . has anyone done (or heard)of a closed deck conversion on this motor ?

[el_freddo]

Welcome @deezel05 - start you own thread. 

I too am from Oz. I’m a “backyarder” and have worked on a hand full of EJ engines in terms of head gaskets. 

I don’t agree with your EJ251 oil consumption comment, I find they usually drop more oil than what they consume - but that’s my experience. 

For your questions, start a new thread to get attention and replies. 

My question to you is why you want to close deck the block? It’s really not needed, if you’re chasing massive power then yes, but at that point you’d be doing a crank swap etc too. 

Cheers 

Bennie

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Closed deck (stock, conversion, etc) is a waste of time. The deck isn't the problem - it's the weak cylinder liners. Closing the deck only attempts to shore up the weak liners, you can't fully deck the block because you have to allow for case half bolts and coolant flow so ultimately it's an exercise in futility because one way or another you are going to break the liner or blow the HG, etc. Much better to just install Darton sleeves and be done with it. Keep the open or semi-closed deck for proper coolant flow and case bolt access, etc but have a liner that won't rupture if you exceed 25 psi or get a bit of detonation. 

If you are NA - this is a pointless conversation.

GD