notnowles Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I am looking at this car for a neighbor friend. She went to start it this morning and it didn't. When I got there, we tried it again and it's obvious that the timing chain (I believe it's a chain?) must have broken because the engine just free wheels w/o any signs of compression. Car has just turned 70K. I am experienced with my old EJ22 engines with belts and no interference. Just wondering if anyone has had experience with this and can guide as to how bad it's likely to be. I am guessing that it probably has bent valves (?) Thanks for any help/guidance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Somebody just had a thread about broken timing chains on an H6 a few weeks ago. I'm not sure what the conclusion was. I'll have to look it up. In the meantime, have you done a compression test? Have you checked for spark and fuel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_bard Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Please define (or elaborate on) "the engine just free wheels w/o any signs of compression". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowles Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 No, have not done a compression test. Not yet anyway. When I say it freewheels, I mean it sounds like it has a broken timing belt. Starter spins the engine w/o resistance. I can see the crank pulley spinning so I know the starter is working and the crank is turning. If you have ever heard an engine crank with a broken timing belt, you know what I mean. Engine turns much faster than normal with the starter due to compression loss. It's the way an engine sounds if you remove the plugs and crank the starter. Thanks for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 The H6's do use a timing chain and from what you stated it may have broken. This would mean real bad news for the owner. Doing a compression check would very things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Does the H6 have an inspection cover that can be removed to see the chain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccrinc Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 The EZ30 (H6) has a metal cover with approx. 112 bolts to take it off and they have to be removed in a specific order. It has 2 timing chains. The only thing I have heard of that causes them to break, especially at 70K, is lack of regular oil changes and/or low oil. The tensioners and idlers are inside that front cover and are lubricated by the engine oil, therefore it is absolutely critical that this engine gets maintained religiously. Yes, it's interferential. Extremely so. I'm sorry, but there's nothing you can do to help your neighbor but break the news to her gently. If it's still under warranty, unless she can prove proper maintenance, it won't be covered by a dealer, and these are hideously expensive to rebuild. How do I know? I have one in my car, and every one we have rebuilt that had low mileage went bad due to lack of maintenance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivans imports Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I have one of those engines out here used it for race car had 380000kms on it origanal chain. had to change one piston had to undo over 165 bolts to get to it was crazy. But i did have it apart and know that engine and i have two cores with good heads. One with broken pistons one over heated both run still.I could see the timing chain skiping but not breaking i ran that moter at 8000 rpm with turbo no timing problems.I whould pull out one of the cam sensers and look to see if the cam is turning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowles Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 Hello again, So today I got to thinking about this no start problem and I asked the neighbor owner if the car had made any noise when it first refused to start. The answer was no. So, I decided that my initial fear diagnosis of a broken chain was wrong with a capital W. No way a chain could have snapped on a start attempt w/o some sort of clunk or bang. The engine does have an unusual sound when it is cranking, but maybe that's my imagination. I'm used to a G1 EJ22. I checked this 03 H6 for codes (have a scan tool) and none were stored. This seems odd to me. I tried cranking it for a bit and it actually fired once or twice rather lamely, but wouldn't start. So, sorry for saying that an H6 had suffered a major failure at 70K. Soobies are better than that! Now, to figure out what is wrong with it... I'll have to figure out how to check those coils and to get into the fuel line to see what's there. Thanks to all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 You could try the old test for stuck exhaust valve, hold a strip of paper at the tailpipe while cranking. If it 'sucks in' then there may be some bad valve timing. Another thought, (carefully) take the hose loose at the fuel filter and see if there's pressure. There is an odd failure to some fuel pumps on this model. maybe just no fuel is being sent to the injectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 See if using some starter fluid will get things running. If that doesn't help and you know the ignition is ok then check the compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 The H6 does seem to normally turn over quite 'freely', it's those li'l' tiny 500CC cylinders and the extra two compression strokes spreading out the loading up of the starter. The fuel pump is a 'popular' problem on these critters, sometimes they just pee the gas right back into the tank. Maybe try turning the key on-off-on-off a bunch of times, then trying to start it- if it starts for a sec or coughs it is a good indicator it's not getting fuel. Of course a fuel pressure gauge is better. You could always disconnect the fuel line to/from the fuel pump, one person on the key and another with a coffee can. Also, don't forget to first try cranking it with the throttle held full open in case it's a flooded condition. If it is getting gas after a lot of crank8ing you should be abl;e to smell some gas at the exhaust pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowles Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 Thanks for the suggestions! I'm still not quite sure what to think... A whiff of starting fluid into the intake with the air cleaner open, and we were off to the races. Seems to run fine, still no codes stored. The car was tuned up at a local shop a few weeks back. One of my theories is that, perhaps, they installed too cold a plug, which fouled. That's just a theory, of course. I could pull a plug later when it cools down to see if they appear to be the correct ones. Haven't road tested it yet because it's rush hour here, but will do later. Hard for me to believe that it won't run fine though as I have had it running for quite a while, engine revved up, etc. Not sure just yet that the final chapter is in but at least it's not a broken timing chain as I first feared! Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 there is a known problem, apparently a little known problem, with the fuel pump. an o-ring in the fuel pump to be exact. it squeezes out of position and then the pump doesn't pump so well. this pump and o-ring is specific to the H6, not used on the H4. i have read about this twice. once a good while ago and i forgot it. buy i read a thread about it recently on subaruoutback.org . just a guess, but probably a pretty good one since starting fluid fired it up. i would look for that thread and read up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 i found several, but these 2 seem promising. i have not read through either of them today, sorry if they do not apply. http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/110-gen-2-2000-2004/41182-symptoms-fuel-pump-o-ring-problem.html?highlight=outback+pump+fuel+o-ring http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/26419-2001-subaru-just-shut-down.html?highlight=outback+pump+fuel+o-ring full list http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/search.php?searchid=786346 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowles Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 John, thanks for the follow up with the o ring information/links. The car seems fine at the moment, but it would make sense for the o ring to be a cause of the no start condition we had yesterday. I will post again if the symptoms return. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 There is also an ECU reflash for the 3.0 to help correct a long cranking problem but it sounds like it is a pump that is taking a dive. Next time it doesn't start, hook a fuel pressure gauge in line under the hood and see what the fuel pressure is at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 While you have your scan tool hooked up, check to see what the coolant temp sensor reading is in the live data stream. If the engine is cold, it should read the same as the intake air temp sensor reading. If the readings are way off, the computer may thing the engine is warm when trying to start it cold and not give it a rich enough mix. Don't use ether in a gas engine or an IDI diesel. I have shattered a piston before using ether. Use propane or WD40 or carb cleaner, not ether. I'd be suspect of the fuel pump too, but that should cause issues under load not just starting problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 the o-ring is shown around the 10 minute mark. hope this helps. fuel pump replacement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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