long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[scalman]

Ohh cool. Does your upper link custom made? Because stock its just wont let wheel drop down more 

Pic without wheel and from closer would be cool to see how it all looks.

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by scalman

[pontoontodd]

I'll try to remember to take a picture with the wheel off once it's all painted and assembled.

Yes, we made all three lateral links a little longer than stock.  They are apparently a little too long on the left side, I had to make a washer for the outer CV so it wouldn't pull the inner CV out of the diff.

[pontoontodd]

Some of the shock parts including the longer bodies and shafts.

Pictures of the longer shocks installed on the 2002 as requested.

 

 

 

I should have gotten some pictures of one of these shocks compared to a stock one but I was in a hurry. 

Reservoirs are just zip tied in place temporarily so they don't bounce around.  I'll mount them more securely.

Right now it's a complicated procedure to install these.  Hard to explain why without seeing it but the spring collars have to be threaded down, shocks have to go in reservoir first from the bottom, collars threaded up, shocks charged, springs installed, and then bolt the shocks in.  I'm already planning on making new brackets to mount the tops of the shocks so I can just slide them down through the floor with the springs on.

[scalman]

looks good , but see how those upper links going on angle still. so you think they wont interfier with all traveling up and down in long term.? so those links now let you use full travel of those shocks ? thats amazing. so links are custom made yes ? they not just from some other car ? 

Edited May 5, 2019 by scalman

[pontoontodd]

23 minutes ago, scalman said:

looks good , but see how those upper links going on angle still. so you think they wont interfier with all traveling up and down in long term.? so those links now let you use full travel of those shocks ? thats amazing. so links are custom made yes ? they not just from some other car ? 

I don't know how long the bushings will last.  If they don't last long or I want to get more travel I'll probably have to switch to ball joints. 

Yes, you can run it through the full travel but it takes some force at the extremes.

Yes, we made the links, that was the cheap and easy part.

 

I really think longer links would be the best solution but you might wind up making a new subframe to mount them.  You could also "tub" the body (build bigger wheel wells) but the bottom of the wheel is already even with the bottom of the body at full compression.

I keep thinking about making some longer CV axle shafts and longer arms/links for more travel in general.  I think 15-18" of travel would be another big step forward.  Longer axles and arms would start to get more expensive and less bolt on.  One good thing with our setup now is that spare stock axles and struts work for the long travel cars or cars with stock suspension.  One big problem widening the suspension would be that the tires go up inside the rear wheel wells now, that would take a significant amount of bodywork to still allow full travel and cover the tires if they were out a few inches farther.

[scalman]

i was thinking if those 3 rear links would be like custom adjustable with bolt so you can change its lenght as you need . why you didint made them as that ? 

Edited May 5, 2019 by scalman

[pontoontodd]

Just now, scalman said:

i was thinking if those 3 rear links would be like custom with bolt so you can change its lenght as you need . why you didint made them as that ? 

Unless you used really large bolts I'd probably bend them on rocks.  The upper link would probably be OK.  Maybe with big rod ends / heim joints and misalignment spacers that would be a good way to be able to adjust your alignment and have better articulation than the stock bushings.  It would be a lot more expensive though, the stock bushings are about $10 each, I'd want to use at least 3/4" rod ends and those are $20+ each and you'd need a dozen of them.  I also think the ride would be a little harsher and they'd get sloppy.

My other thought was if you make them the right length and nothing gets significantly bent there's no need to adjust them.

[pontoontodd]

Forester has been popping out of fifth gear when he gets on and off the gas. Fifth gear was worn when I put the trans together but less worn than the other fifth gear I had lying around. It has also been making a buzzing noise often when shifting high to low with the synchros we made so I wanted to look at that.

His water pump had started leaking too so he ordered parts to fix both. If we were just doing the water pump we would have just done it in the car.

He drove it here Saturday. We took the engine and trans out and took the trans off the engine and I started taking it apart.  Figured having two people working on the trans doesn't help much and it's not much more work to take out engine and trans together, makes it easier to do the water pump.  He was working on the timing set and water pump. There was a clearly used tensioner in the timing kit with a blown out damper so he used a good old one.

Fifth gear was definitely worn and the nut on the input shaft was loose, I may not have staked it enough. It was a slightly taller ratio than what was in the transmission so I replaced both fifth gears.

 

The synchro for high range was smashed again, not as badly as the stock one had been.

I spent a lot of time chiseling globs of melted brass off the input shaft. Then I put it in the lathe to sand it smooth and the rest came off instantly.  I noticed this time there was a gap between the input shaft and the big bearing it presses into so I pressed that back in. We figured whatever caused that must be smashing the high range synchro.  Then I removed the big snapring and pulled the bearing out of the input shaft housing. There is a washer and a snapring that is supposed to hold the shaft from pushing back in the bearing. The snapring was there but had slid out of the groove. The groove is shallow and the snapring didn't have much tension on it so I bent it closed and put it in the groove. After doing that I put the transmission together with no washers under the input shaft housing and it still spun freely with a little endplay on the synchro. I'm wondering if that was the problem all along.  I did test fit the input shaft with one half of the case on the engine with flywheel and clutch and there is room to slide the input shaft so it's not the pilot bearing or something pushing on the input shaft.  My friend pointed out with the helical cut on the input shaft gear it tries to pull into the trans under load so maybe that's what pulls it in.

We put the engine and trans back in the car and hooked everything back up. Took about ten hours total. Then the engine wouldn't start, solenoid just clicked.  He had sanded the ends of the battery cables while I was working on the trans but we double checked those and tried a different battery with no success.  We pull started the car and he drove it around the block, high, low, and first-fifth all worked fine, no popping out of fifth gear, no leaks.  So he just drove it home without shutting it off. 

He put an Outback starter in and it worked fine.

Edited May 6, 2019 by pontoontodd

[pontoontodd]

The radiator on my 96 Impreza was leaking, the condenser had rubbed a hole through one of the tubes.  One of the mounting posts had broken off too so I got a new one.  It's 1.5 pounds lighter than the old one, I think just from some dirt and coolant still in/on the old one.  Replacement was pretty easy, padded and clearanced a few things a little better than before.  Drove it around town a bit yesterday and seems good.

 

Finally fixed the oil cooler on the 99 Outback this morning.  I got the longer oil cooler bolts made:

Last week I drilled and tapped the block deeper and noticed this hole:

That goes to the outside of the engine.  Also that spot below the threads seemed to have a slight crack/leak/porosity.  So I JB welded both inside and out:

Not pretty but functional.  Did it in a few layers.  On the plus side it sat for a week until I had time today to put it back together and test it.

This is what it looks like with the new bolt.

Took about four quarts to fill it back up with oil (including adding a little after running) so I think there were still a couple quarts in the pan when I shut it off.

Fired it up for a minute and didn't see any leaks.  After a couple seconds the oil pressure light went off, never made any noise.

I need to remake the skidplate on that side with more clearance and a little stronger.  Also plan on making a fairly solid pitch stopper.

[pontoontodd]

Does anyone have a pinout or troubleshooting instructions for the heat/AC control of a 99 Outback?

Mine has the same number and pattern of pins shown in the Haynes manual but the continuity doesn't match their chart at all.  Continuity across some changes if I hit different buttons.

Can't find anything in the FSM.

I do have another one or two that might also be bad, I'll check those next.

[pontoontodd]

So the directional HVAC control on my black Outback has given me all kinds of problems.  This is just the pushbuttons to control where the air comes out, everything else always works fine.  Unfortunately there isn't any easy mechanical substitution.  I replaced it once a few years ago and it's been working pretty well until late last year when it started working intermittently.  I got another one from slamma, it also doesn't seem to work, the button for vent sticks down sometimes too.  He is sending me another one to try.  Probably not related but the lighting to it rarely works.  I have read that you can take it apart and clean the contacts but I tried that on another one and just wound up with a thousand little pieces of plastic.  It's possible the door actuator or wiring to it has failed but that is very hard to get to, there is all kinds of extra wiring and the TCU in the way.  I tried pushing on the lever while pushing the control buttons and it doesn't flinch at all.

I can't find anything in the factory service manual:
http://jdmfsm.info/Auto/Japan/Subaru/Legacy_Outback/1999/Service Manual/
But there is a chart in the Haynes manual showing continuity between pins.  The continuity of both control units I have seems the same but doesn't match their diagram at all.  I'm attaching a picture of their diagram with what I found written on it in pen.

It doesn't look like the numbers are just backwards or otherwise switched around but this is where maybe one of you guys will see something I can't.  What's also strange is that with just that connector plugged in, the recirc button on both controls makes the recirc door open and close but I don't see any change in continuity between any pins on either when I push the button up or down???

[pontoontodd]

I checked the pins at the harness. Using the same numbering above, pins 1,2,8, and 10 are +12V with the ignition on (0 with ignition off). Pins 3 and 12 are grounded with the ignition off, about 20 ohms to ground with ignition on.

[pontoontodd]

I wanted to prevent the oil cooler from getting hit again so I remade the skidplate on the passenger side.  Made that front part out of 1/8" 4130, the rest is 1/16" 4130.

 

Not real clear in this picture but the mounting tab is moved forward about an inch.

Sticks out a little farther than the center one at the moment but that will probably change with use.

 

Slammo suggested a stiffer pitch stopper so I made one out of a few pieces of tubing.

Just used a couple pieces of 1/2" heater hose for the "bushings" and made a couple little sleeves out of steel tubing.  It doesn't seem to have increased the fore/aft stiffness of the engine mounting judging with a prybar before and after.  At least it's lighter than the stock one and is probably stiffer on big impacts.

[pontoontodd]

I got another HVAC control from slammo but it still didn't work.  So I'm assuming it's the wiring, linkage, or door mode actuator.

Linkage seems to move pretty easily.

Pulled the actuator out and tested it as recommended in the Haynes manual.  Put voltage to pin 1 and 2, depending on polarity you can make the arm turn either way.  Checked that harness plug with the car turned on and it shows 12V across those two pins.  Ran jumper wires from those two sockets to the actuator, didn't move.  Thought I had another actuator but can't find it. 

Do have the HVAC box from the H6 donor (2002 OB sedan).  That actuator has a different arm coming out the other side of the box.  1999 on left, 2002 on right.

 

Pretty easy to take apart but couldn't remove either arm.  You can see the contacts on the one out of the 2002, I figured those might be bad on the old one but can't get the arm off.

Plugged the 2002 actuator into the 99, pushed buttons on the control, arm moved around.

 

Got one at a local junkyard for a 99.  Plug it in, push vent/floor, arm moves a bit, push floor, arm moves more, push floor/defrost, arm does nothing and no longer moves. 

Plug in the actuator from the 2002, push vent/floor, arm moves a bit, push floor, arm moves more, push floor/defrost, arm does nothing and no longer moves.

Ugh.

Next step is to go through all the wiring, at least the Haynes manual has a diagram, hopefully it's accurate.  Looks like almost all the wires from the actuator should be the same color at the controller.  Also found the wiring diagram in the FSM so I'll probably go by that.

Why couldn't they just have a cable like they do for the hot/cold?

Edited May 23, 2019 by pontoontodd

[pontoontodd]

The red/blue wire had no continuity from the controller to the actuator so I spliced in a new one and it seems to work.  All the other wires seem good.  All three controllers I have seem to work (vent button sticks on one) and all three actuators seem to work.  Just need to put it all back together, will definitely be good to have air coming out the vents now that it's in the 70s.

[pontoontodd]

The final twist to the 99 HVAC was the linkage had a catch/slop about halfway through.  You could move it all the way through the travel by hand but there are all sorts of slots and arms and there is a catch where one of them reverses direction in a slot.  My Impreza does the same thing but you can play with the knob to get it past that spot.  I sprayed the linkage down with some lube and that seemed to help a little.  I cycled the actuator a bunch of times and that seemed to help some.  Occasionally if you have it in defrost and then hit the vent button (at the far end of the travel), it will get stuck halfway through.  If you push each button in order it seems to work every time, I think that little stopping and starting jogs it through.  The extra voltage and slight vibration of the engine running didn't seem to help.

 

 

I recently changed the valving in the rear shocks on the 2002 Outback.  After I did that and before I put the interior back in, I made up some little tie down loops.  Probably should have made them longer but you can hook a normal ratchet strap onto them, I'm thinking they'll hold up better than the stock plastic hooks, ultimately probably limited by the tabs spot welded to the body.

You can barely see one of them bolted to the top of the right shock mount.  Reservoirs are hose clamped in place.  Cut out the foam under the floor panel that sits on them, it still sits a little high but not too bad.

With all the interior back in.

Here you can barely see the other tie down loops.

We'll find out soon how well they hold.

[scalman]

Looks clean and nice , so its not covered now fully meaning its straight hot goes outside. How about more noise and maybe dirt will come inside now via there? You could make some full cover like cup bolted onto it and cover that with some sound isolation even.

[pontoontodd]

27 minutes ago, scalman said:

Looks clean and nice , so its not covered now fully meaning its straight hot goes outside. How about more noise and maybe dirt will come inside now via there? You could make some full cover like cup bolted onto it and cover that with some sound isolation even.

I do have some grommets around the shock bodies but they definitely don't seal 100%.  I think they're out of most of the tire spray and I'd have to be in pretty deep water/mud for it to start coming in there.  If it becomes a problem I'll come up with something.  I do need to change the way the shocks are mounted/installed though, it's a giant pain to install them right now.

[FerGloyale]

On 1/13/2019 at 4:57 PM, pontoontodd said:

 

I was figuring if you replaced all the bushings with ball joints including (especially) the trailing arm bushing, you could use just two lateral links.  That trailing arm bushing is pretty soft.

 

Well, I decided to put this theory to the test.

I drove my wagon today with the forward lateral link completely remvoed.

It was 1000 times better than with the 6" or so lengthened lateral link.

Felt great on flat and bumpy stragiht line, and even in gentle corners BUT.............

In hard turns you can feel the softness in the trailing arm bushings, and the rump roast feels very unpredictable and not so safe.  SO ..........factory length laterla link will be going back in soon.

Pontoon, I've been thinking,  with you're 1" longer setup on all arms, do you not need to move the trailing arm mount 1" outward also in order to maintain toe?

[pontoontodd]

On 5/31/2019 at 1:44 AM, FerGloyale said:

 

Well, I decided to put this theory to the test.

I drove my wagon today with the forward lateral link completely remvoed.

It was 1000 times better than with the 6" or so lengthened lateral link.

Felt great on flat and bumpy stragiht line, and even in gentle corners BUT.............

In hard turns you can feel the softness in the trailing arm bushings, and the rump roast feels very unpredictable and not so safe.  SO ..........factory length laterla link will be going back in soon.

Pontoon, I've been thinking,  with you're 1" longer setup on all arms, do you not need to move the trailing arm mount 1" outward also in order to maintain toe?

Interesting.  I still think if you had a ball joint (racing style with a big hole in the middle, not with a stud) in the front of the trailing arm it would be stable, easier to get more travel without bind, but ride harsher.

Toe seems good in the middle of the adjustment, didn't move trailing arm mounts.  I don't remember the exact amount but we lengthened the lateral links less than 1".  Also we lengthened them all the same amount so it shouldn't affect toe at ride height.  I see what you mean though, probably pushes out on that trailing arm bushing.

[pontoontodd]

Last week I noticed the driver's side fan on my 99 Outback wasn't spinning.  Untaped the connector to check for voltage and found this.  Hard to tell from the pictures but the plating is baked off the terminals and some of the wiring insulation is melted off also.  I cut the wires back a bit and just straight spliced them together, there's not too much need to unplug the fan.  The fuse had blown so I replaced that.  My guess is a stick or something got in the fan and kept it from spinning since they sit in front.

 

Another project I finished was building a base for the high lift jack.

 

 

 

 

I can fit it in the back of my 2002 Outback without taking the base off but thought it would be handy to be able to remove it easily.  I've tested it out a few times and it's working better now that a lot of the paint is shaved off the working surfaces.  Also figured out that you should put the car in gear/park AND set the parking brake or the car will want to roll when you jack up a couple wheels.

[scalman]

Cool so i missed maybe where are yours outback hi lift mount places..? Nice pad and those locks wish i could found that kinda here

[pontoontodd]

20 minutes ago, scalman said:

Cool so i missed maybe where are yours outback hi lift mount places..? Nice pad and those locks wish i could found that kinda here

Just front and rear centered receivers on the black Outback.  Three receivers built into the front bumper of the white Outback.  Eventually I'll make a rear bumper for the white Outback with three receivers also.

 

I have gotten one of these from a junkyard:

https://www.curtmfg.com/part/23581

I should have just ordered more like them, those big toggle pins I got are larger and slightly more expensive but I was able to get them from a local place and I was in a hurry.

[FerGloyale]

On 6/5/2019 at 7:04 AM, pontoontodd said:

Interesting.  I still think if you had a ball joint (racing style with a big hole in the middle, not with a stud) in the front of the trailing arm it would be stable, easier to get more travel without bind, but ride harsher.

Toe seems good in the middle of the adjustment, didn't move trailing arm mounts.  I don't remember the exact amount but we lengthened the lateral links less than 1".  Also we lengthened them all the same amount so it shouldn't affect toe at ride height.  I see what you mean though, probably pushes out on that trailing arm bushing.

 

I don't think a ball joint or heim would work for the front.  It NEEDS that softness and extra space on each side to flex.  with all 3 lateral arms connected, it get's pulled inward and outward.  I thikn that's why it's such an "open" mounting with the center bolt about 2" longer than the width of the arm.  If that pivot could be more stationary, they would have used a tighter fit mount and bushing more like the 99's.

I think with a heim it would bind at the point where the forward "short" link  begins to move in or out depending on what point you set it up at "nuetral"if all 3 links used.  there owuld come a point were it became a tripod and couldn't move.  Or it would break or bend the short arms inner pivot at the subframe.

Might work with only the top and rear laterals.  But then you would definatley get more toe in at compression, and tope out at droop.  Could be mitigated with really long, equal length arms, but that's difficult for the upper.

[pontoontodd]

10 minutes ago, FerGloyale said:

 

I don't think a ball joint or heim would work for the front.  It NEEDS that softness and extra space on each side to flex.  with all 3 lateral arms connected, it get's pulled inward and outward.  I thikn that's why it's such an "open" mounting with the center bolt about 2" longer than the width of the arm.  If that pivot could be more stationary, they would have used a tighter fit mount and bushing more like the 99's.

I think with a heim it would bind at the point where the forward "short" link  begins to move in or out depending on what point you set it up at "nuetral"if all 3 links used.  there owuld come a point were it became a tripod and couldn't move.  Or it would break or bend the short arms inner pivot at the subframe.

Might work with only the top and rear laterals.  But then you would definatley get more toe in at compression, and tope out at droop.  Could be mitigated with really long, equal length arms, but that's difficult for the upper.

I was only thinking the ball joint/heim for the trailing arm if you had two lateral links like you tested.  Ideally with two long lateral links to reduce CV plunge.