long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[slammo]

On 11/10/2022 at 8:12 AM, travelvw said:

This might be a useful reference for Slammo too, even if he chooses to cut.

I'm just going to hack away with the angry grinder until it all fits 😉 Although I'm going to do a better job at re-sealing the body than I did last time.

 

Ditto on loving the aluminum spacers; I guess you're making those separate from the trailing arm spacers since you plan to remove the trailing arm spacers when you lengthen the trailing arms?

[travelvw]

9 hours ago, slammo said:

I'm just going to hack away with the angry grinder until it all fits 😉 Although I'm going to do a better job at re-sealing the body than I did last time.

 

Ditto on loving the aluminum spacers; I guess you're making those separate from the trailing arm spacers since you plan to remove the trailing arm spacers when you lengthen the trailing arms?

^That's what I figured. I would personally like to limit the body cutting. It's more work than making spacers, which will in turn give me more floor/rocker clearance from the unforgiving Ozark rocks. We all have slightly different goals for our projects. So, hopefully J is capable of answering a simple question with something more than sarcasm?

My experience with vintage portal axles is wheel hop, blown bearings, and oil leaks: my bus will not have portals by the time I'm done with it.

K

Edited November 12, 2022 by travelvw

[travelvw]

On 11/12/2022 at 8:08 AM, travelvw said:

^That's what I figured. I would personally like to limit the body cutting. It's more work than making spacers, which will in turn give me more floor/rocker clearance from the unforgiving Ozark rocks. We all have slightly different goals for our projects. So, hopefully J is capable of answering a simple question with something more than sarcasm?

My experience with vintage portal axles is wheel hop, blown bearings, and oil leaks: my bus will not have portals by the time I'm done with it.

K

The answer is a minimum of 3.5" subframe spacers for 235/75R15, so I'll be making 4" spacers to be safe.

Also, I forgot to post this video from spring of this year:

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by travelvw

[pontoontodd]

First, try to answer some questions.

Thanks for posting that vid, shows some pretty good crawling although as always it seemed a lot steeper in person.

This is how high above the rear fender lip the tire goes at full bump with no bumpstop.

Angle of the photo makes it look like more but 1.25" + with very worn tread.  I'd figure at least 1.75" with new 215/75/15 to be safe.  I still think it will take a lot of structural cutting to make even bigger tires fit when they're pushed out a couple inches.  Cutting/bending out the front fenders, sure no problem, but the rears will be a lot of fab work to get the body to seal I think.  Possibly a bigger problem will be the front tires rubbing the firewall.  As it sits there's maybe an inch of clearance.  And I can tell you from experience once bushings wear out and things get a little tweaked the 215/75/15s rub on the firewall (back of the front wheel well).  No idea how you'd solve that problem without a LOT of fab work.  Whiteline does sell offset bushings for the aluminum rear brackets for the front control arms and I think I have a pair but that won't buy you a lot of clearance.  Really not trying to hate, I think these cars would be even better with taller tires now that we have low ranges.  Would be cool if you make it work just want to make sure you know what you're up against.

I thought about welding the rear strut hole but figured it'd just be a lot of welding and grinding with minimal benefit.  Painted those and thought I took pictures but don't have them handy.

Yes, planning on removing those trailing arm spacers when we fab the new trailing arms.  Less leverage on the mount, more up and back motion for ride quality, etc.

Moving on - sleeved and capped the subframe spacers.

Painted all the spacers with some brush on tractor enamel.  Looks terrible but on the plus side you can put it on a lot thicker than spray paint, no overspray (nice in the winter), and it seems to hold up better.

Front subframe spacer with bottom plate installed.

Trans and driveshaft spacers installed.

Unfortunately I couldn't quite get full droop in the front, the axles were hitting the arms.  I'm not sure if the trans is effectively lower on this one than our other cars or if the auto trans outputs are a little lower.  Regardless, some cutting, welding, and painting took place.  Didn't take much, even this much gives me a decent amount of clearance.  Might be able to get away with cutting a slot in that wall and just hammering the top down.

Next on the fab and paint agenda was the steering column.  Had to add 20mm / 0.8".  Turned up a sleeve out of 300M and welded and painted it.  Should figure out a better way to do this next time, despite a lot of spraying with WD40 the u joints might have lost some grease.  Maybe submerge them in oil or water while welding.

Last fab project before the test drive, welded some reservoir mounts on and moved the brake line brackets.

Painted those, installed struts etc.

Did install a bolt in the middle of the rear subframe mounts.  Put rubber grommets above and below for some bushing effect.  Interesting that it's rubber mounted (albeit stiffly) and the front is solidly mounted.  Regardless, after getting sorta used to the black Outback, I'll be fine.

One more long travel Subaru on the loose.

White Outback for scale.

Only weighs 2995#!  56% front weight now.  Tires and suspension and spacers are heavier, wheels are lighter and we removed the front bumper cover, foglights, and swaybars.  Will eventually be close to 4000# with the H6, bumpers, skidplates, cargo, and a couple people inside.  Then it will sit lower and probably ride better, it's definitely a little stiff right now.  For reference, my black Outback weighed 4152# the last time we weighed it (a couple years ago) with no people or cargo but with H6, bumpers, skidplates, etc.

 

B also welded up the hatch latch (body side) in his blue Forester, it was all cracked and sloppy.  We checked and tightened a few things on the front end too.

 

Back to the black Outback.  Replaced the LF wheel bearing, wasn't real sloppy but was making a ton of noise.

Pictured below is our "fix" during our last trip for the fuel pickup getting clogged.  See yellow ball valve on left.  Open that up and blow into it hard to clear the pickup sock.

Took the fill plate off.  Gaskets were still in excellent shape, polyurethane I used last time works much better than the supposedly fuel resistant rubbers I'd tried before.  Took some foam out and peeked in, nowhere near as bad as I expected.  Foam doesn't seem to be disintegrating.  Some small debris in the tank but not much considering the cell has been in there for perhaps 100k miles without being cleaned out.  Pickup tube and sock was jammed in the corner, which is probably how it's always been, but by the time I got it out it was kinked a bit, not sure if that's how it was before I started removing it.  Sock definitely has a lot of crud on it.  Pretty sure it started out white.

Removed the sock and put the pickup hose back in.  Put a clear inline filter before the pump.  We'd thought about doing this on the trip and bought the parts to do it but I didn't want to remove the pickup sock then.  This is what it looked like after about a half hour of driving around town today.  Need to swap it out, maybe backflush it and use again.  Will probably do that a few times and then put a coarser screen pickup sock on the pickup tube and leave one of these in place.

Edited November 21, 2022 by pontoontodd

[slammo]

Looking great man, can't wait to see this thing yeet.

 

Have you considered something like the holley hydramat for the fuel pickup? Would drastically increase the filter surface area and is supposed to help get every last drop out of the tank when it's close to empty. I understand they are kinda pricey though.

 

Front subframe makes sense to be solid mounted because it has to carry the engine and provide strength between the frame rails in the engine compartment, since there's a big hole where the engine goes. Soft mounting the whole front subframe would mean those bushings would react loads from the steering rack, engine, and control arms all at once - not great for steering compliance, chassis feel, drivetrain alignment, etc. Solid mounting the front subframe lets the steering rack, control arms, and engine each be mounted with their own bushings that can be tuned for each component.

 

Rear, the chassis is more whole above the rear subframe so there's less need for added strength/stiffness. The engineers would want some cushion/compliance for lateral loads for ride comfort, but they would want to prevent toe compliance so your rear wheels don't steer all over the place. If they had solid mounted the rear subframe and used softer bushings for the lateral links, then compliance in the lateral link bushings would cause the rear toe to vary with lateral load. Using stiffer bushings for the lateral links and (relatively) softer bushings for the subframe lets the system be comfortable but still keep toe in check since the subframe bushings can react moments across a wider distance.

 

Rear subframe mount, my concern is that the bolts without bushings will induce more stress in the chassis at those points. If you have two solid mounts and four rubber mounts, the solid mounts will be doing almost all of the work. The rubber grommets sandwiching the subframe might help but probably won't do much for the lateral loads which would be the most impactful. IMO your best move would be to add an OEM-style rubber bushing to those middle bolts, but if you don't want to go through that trouble I'd say get rid of the rest of the rubber subframe bushings and hard mount the whole thing. That way lateral force can be shared by all six bolts instead of just two. I don't think any decrease in ride quality is much of a concern in this context haha, and it might make it easier to mount the gas tank skid plate.

Edited November 21, 2022 by slammo

[el_freddo]

That impreza is looking MINT! I don’t think you’d want tyres any larger than those - you’d loose too much drivability on road which is something that Subarus are good at when lifted compared to other four wheel drives. 

Keep up the good work. I love that hatch shape, lifted is even better!! 

Cheers 

Bennie

[el_freddo]

On 10/29/2022 at 11:22 PM, el_freddo said:

With the impreza build, are you ditching the rear drums for discs? Over here anything EJ had discs all round in AWD spec and rear drums only on the 2wd models. 

Ok, I have to eat my words here. Last weekend I found a ‘97 auto AWD Impreza sedan with rear drum brakes!! I NEVER knew this was a thing in Australia… 

Cheers 

Bennie

[pontoontodd]

7 hours ago, slammo said:

Looking great man, can't wait to see this thing yeet.

 

Have you considered something like the holley hydramat for the fuel pickup? Would drastically increase the filter surface area and is supposed to help get every last drop out of the tank when it's close to empty. I understand they are kinda pricey though.

 

Front subframe makes sense to be solid mounted because it has to carry the engine and provide strength between the frame rails in the engine compartment, since there's a big hole where the engine goes. Soft mounting the whole front subframe would mean those bushings would react loads from the steering rack, engine, and control arms all at once - not great for steering compliance, chassis feel, drivetrain alignment, etc. Solid mounting the front subframe lets the steering rack, control arms, and engine each be mounted with their own bushings that can be tuned for each component.

 

Rear, the chassis is more whole above the rear subframe so there's less need for added strength/stiffness. The engineers would want some cushion/compliance for lateral loads for ride comfort, but they would want to prevent toe compliance so your rear wheels don't steer all over the place. If they had solid mounted the rear subframe and used softer bushings for the lateral links, then compliance in the lateral link bushings would cause the rear toe to vary with lateral load. Using stiffer bushings for the lateral links and (relatively) softer bushings for the subframe lets the system be comfortable but still keep toe in check since the subframe bushings can react moments across a wider distance.

 

Rear subframe mount, my concern is that the bolts without bushings will induce more stress in the chassis at those points. If you have two solid mounts and four rubber mounts, the solid mounts will be doing almost all of the work. The rubber grommets sandwiching the subframe might help but probably won't do much for the lateral loads which would be the most impactful. IMO your best move would be to add an OEM-style rubber bushing to those middle bolts, but if you don't want to go through that trouble I'd say get rid of the rest of the rubber subframe bushings and hard mount the whole thing. That way lateral force can be shared by all six bolts instead of just two. I don't think any decrease in ride quality is much of a concern in this context haha, and it might make it easier to mount the gas tank skid plate.

Yes I considered the hydramat.  Not much concern with having an uninterrupted fuel supply since it has a one gallon surge tank.  Yes it'd probably take longer to clog up, probably long enough I'd never have to touch it again, but they're expensive, like $200+.  Talked to a couple off road racers who say they just don't use a pickup sock and run an external filter, so that's my current plan.

I understand all that with the subframes and bushings.  Going to stick with the rubber grommets on those added bolts.  IIRC the holes for them in the subframe are quite a bit bigger than the bolts so they're not doing much lateral location except maybe from friction.  That part of the subframe they clamp isn't super rigid so I don't think it will cause a lot of stress.  The subframe bushings are very stiff too.  Overall just not worried about it.

 

Gotta do more research on my own but could use some advice on the EZ36 swap.

Radiator - Leaning towards an early EZ30 radiator (they're thicker than the EZ30"R" and EZ36 IIRC).  Need to check height.  Considering some other aftermarket radiators, including for non Subarus, looks like there are a few with ~2" thick cores but they basically all have just one inlet.  Worked around that on the black Outback but not really ideal.  Also thought about using something shorter so I can raise the radiator support but I don't think I'm willing to go that far right now.

Fans - Assuming I'll need to use pusher fans again, will probably just see if I can fit a pair of these, they're noisy but work well:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spu-ix-30102045/overview

ECU - Leaning towards Haltech especially since they say they have a base map for the EZ36.  Will have to figure out the best solutions for AC and cruise control to work with that.  Assuming the EZ36 being drive by wire normally just has cruise built in to the ECU and just have to wire the switches to it.  Would be nice if the AC wasn't just hotwired and frosted up like my black Outback.

Exhaust - Assuming the engine won't come with full manifolds/headers I plan on buying Raptor headers, they're the only kind I've found much info on.  They supposedly sell "Impreza swap" headers but I didn't see them on their site.  Some heavy wall tube to the back and then probably a stock EZ36 muffler if I can fit it.  Open to suggestion here but want it as quiet as possible.

Might use stock airbox/filter or might put a GM Vortec centrifugal style filter like I have in the black Outback, seems to work well.

Need an earlier EZ36 so the power steering pump bolts on right?

Assuming I can make the AC, fuel, and coolant lines work.  Returnless fuel pump for the EZ36?

 

Aside from that, need to get an STI driveshaft and R180 and put a low range in my other 6MT.  Very tempted to maintain the front CV height at the trans but tip the back end of the trans down to get the front of the engine up for better approach angle.  Will hopefully start on the billet rear knuckles this week.  Need to fab a bumper and skids too.

Edited November 21, 2022 by pontoontodd

[pontoontodd]

[el_freddo]

You’re a tease Todd!  

The twin radiator outlets can be sorted with a pipe that adapts two outlets into one to the factory radiator. My mate had his H6 Gen2 converted Liberty setup like this. He only had one puller fan on the RHS that did the job well, even when working hard in summer and sand. 

I can’t remember if he had the 3L or the 3.6L though as I’m sure that would make a difference somehow… 

Cheers 

Bennie

[slammo]

On 11/21/2022 at 9:29 AM, pontoontodd said:

Radiator - Leaning towards an early EZ30 radiator (they're thicker than the EZ30"R" and EZ36 IIRC).  Need to check height.  Considering some other aftermarket radiators, including for non Subarus, looks like there are a few with ~2" thick cores but they basically all have just one inlet.  Worked around that on the black Outback but not really ideal.  Also thought about using something shorter so I can raise the radiator support but I don't think I'm willing to go that far right now.

 

Sounds like these guys have developed and maybe produced some; kinda pricey though.

https://www.kobemotorsport.shop/post/r-d-subaru-liberty-outback-gen-iv-h6-3-0l-ez30-aluminium-radiator

https://www.kobemotorsport.shop/product-page/pre-order-subaru-liberty-outback-gen-4-03-09-h6-ez30-alloy-performance-radiator

 

[pontoontodd]

19 hours ago, el_freddo said:

You’re a tease Todd!  

The twin radiator outlets can be sorted with a pipe that adapts two outlets into one to the factory radiator. My mate had his H6 Gen2 converted Liberty setup like this. He only had one puller fan on the RHS that did the job well, even when working hard in summer and sand. 

I can’t remember if he had the 3L or the 3.6L though as I’m sure that would make a difference somehow… 

Cheers 

Bennie

Not trying to be a tease, just need a longer rougher before I can proceed.  A few more pics though, starting with flame cut blank (4.08" thick, ~104mm).

 

Made a Y fitting for my black Outback to use a single inlet radiator.  Works fine but kinda trying to avoid that, nice having off the shelf parts and the stock H6 radiator hoses are less at risk of rubbing on a belt or pulley.

18 hours ago, slammo said:

Sounds like these guys have developed and maybe produced some; kinda pricey though.

https://www.kobemotorsport.shop/post/r-d-subaru-liberty-outback-gen-iv-h6-3-0l-ez30-aluminium-radiator

https://www.kobemotorsport.shop/product-page/pre-order-subaru-liberty-outback-gen-4-03-09-h6-ez30-alloy-performance-radiator

 

Thanks, added that to my list.  For comparison, those are $520.  There is a "Golpher" radiator which I've read a few good things about for $300.  But I'm still leaning towards a stock EZ30"D" radiator, $230 from the dealer, 25mm thick core.  Haven't had any overheating issues in my white OB with that radiator.  Aside from the aftermarket one the tubes ballooned out on.

[slammo]

🅱️illet knuckles looking great 👌

My understanding FWIW, some of the appeal of the all-aluminum radiators is that the plastic end tanks on oem-type radiators can be prone to cracking.

Where'd you find the Golpher for $300? I saw it on Aliexpress but with $150 shipping, and it looked out of stock on eBay but maybe I just didn't find the same listing.

Edited November 24, 2022 by slammo

[el_freddo]

The OEM plastic end tanks only crack due to age or when in a crash that’s significant enough to do the damage, at which point many radiators would do the same thing anyway. 

Cool pics! Can’t wait to see the end product. How many hours in machining there already? 

Cheers 

Bennie

[pontoontodd]

On 11/23/2022 at 7:47 PM, slammo said:

🅱️illet knuckles looking great 👌

My understanding FWIW, some of the appeal of the all-aluminum radiators is that the plastic end tanks on oem-type radiators can be prone to cracking.

Where'd you find the Golpher for $300? I saw it on Aliexpress but with $150 shipping, and it looked out of stock on eBay but maybe I just didn't find the same listing.

 

On 11/24/2022 at 1:51 AM, el_freddo said:

The OEM plastic end tanks only crack due to age or when in a crash that’s significant enough to do the damage, at which point many radiators would do the same thing anyway. 

Cool pics! Can’t wait to see the end product. How many hours in machining there already? 

Cheers 

Bennie

Agree with Bennie, can't remember us having issues with any of the plastic end tanks on the various 20 year old radiators we've been using.

Yeah I guess you're right, forgot about $200 and one month shipping on the Golpher.

It's going to be a while until we see the end product on the knuckles.  Maybe one hour of actual spindle on milling time into it so far.  At least a solid day of set up and test cuts before that.  At least a day of various CAM before that.  Still think it's a better overall solution than making a bunch of pieces and fabricating them.  Assuming it works out.

[slammo]

Did you do anything with the pitch stop mount for the subframe drop?

[pontoontodd]

On 12/2/2022 at 1:27 PM, slammo said:

Did you do anything with the pitch stop mount for the subframe drop?

We were able to pry it enough to get it bolted back in.  Maybe not the long term solution but seemed to work.

 

Dumb question but might as well throw it out there.  Hood vents and scoop are black which I don't like.  Seems like most of these have body color (green) scoop and vents.  Leaning towards getting bumper professionally painted gold/champagne (whatever the bottom part of the body is).  Based on the other parts we've gotten painted by them it should hold up pretty well so I'm not too worried about touch up.  Also leaning towards getting vents and scoop and skids all painted that color while they're at it.  Figure worst case on the vents and scoop I can get a can of spray paint to match the body and paint them later if I don't like the gold.  Thoughts?

 

Billet rear knuckle so far next to blank.  Been working on the programs and fixturing, will probably make more progress this week.

Think I figured out why the passenger headlight wasn't working in the black Outback.

Built some gas tank guards.  Jacked up back corners a bit to get them up against the gas tank and mostly welded them in place, didn't really spring back afterwards.

Small square tubes going forward just have little sheet metal feet that rest on the floor.  That part of the floor is recessed so they probably won't get directly hit, should provide a little ramp for the front of the subframe.  I think these are slightly more heavy duty than the other ones we've built.  Also did cut down those round tubes at the front subframe mounts.

Got the main part of the front bumper tacked up. 

Need to get some receiver tubing and tie it into the radiator support (tube under that just bolted in with a couple 8mm bolts for now).  Bumper sticks a little farther forward than I'd really like but I wanted to make sure to leave plenty of room for pusher fans, even a little room to shift condenser and radiator forward a bit if we have to.  Could barely fit fans behind the front bumper of the black Outback when we added them.  Bumper should also be low enough to fit some little light bars under the headlights, might just take the ones off the black Outback and put them on this.

Smashed the airbox with the press and a propane torch.  Looks pretty rough but should still flow air the same.  Will almost certainly go when we put the H6 in anyhow.

Maybe this week I'll get an engine, diff, driveshaft, radiator, etc etc etc etc.

Edited December 5, 2022 by pontoontodd

[slammo]

On 12/4/2022 at 6:31 PM, pontoontodd said:

 

Hood scoop and vents - IMO gold would look tacky; I'd stick to the OEM green for sure. On the bumper I think black would look better than gold for the style of bumper you're building where it doesn't really blend into the stock lines or imitate the OEM shape. /$.02

 

On 12/4/2022 at 6:31 PM, pontoontodd said:

Fuel tank skid looking mighty fine! Might be worth your time to slap some POR-15 on those rusty brake cable and heat shield brackets.

 

[travelvw]

On 12/6/2022 at 11:31 AM, slammo said:

 

Exactly what D said, minus the scoops and vents... if it is indeed factory matched paint: green or Miller High Life. The gas tank skids look great. Bumper could use more K or B, but it's a good start :).

K

[el_freddo]

Definitely leave the black or colour code it to the body colour for the vents and bonnet scoop! 

Painting them gold will, as @slammo said, look tacky! Steer clear of that at all cost! 

I love the fuel tank guard. I can’t see any other mount points other than those two forward bolts. It would also be a good way to help stabilise the rear subframe too. 

Keep up the good work and the pics  

Cheers 

Bennie

[pontoontodd]

6 hours ago, el_freddo said:

Definitely leave the black or colour code it to the body colour for the vents and bonnet scoop! 

Painting them gold will, as @slammo said, look tacky! Steer clear of that at all cost! 

I love the fuel tank guard. I can’t see any other mount points other than those two forward bolts. It would also be a good way to help stabilise the rear subframe too. 

Keep up the good work and the pics  

Cheers 

Bennie

Not sure if you saw but the guards are also bolted into the diff mount, so four bolts for each one.

I really was planning on getting the vents and scoop painted goldish with the bumper but you guys have convinced me that would look tacky.  So I'll eventually paint them green but that's super low on the list.  On that topic, does anyone remove the sheet metal under the vents and does it help at all with cooling?

Made some more progress on the knuckle, should have that one done next week.

Have an engine, headers, and driveshaft on order, have a line on a rear diff, will probably order an ECU soon.  Local buddy has a good stock radiator and fans(which I probably can't fit) out of a 2002 H6 Outback I plan on using, at least to get started.

[slammo]

Just my opinion, I think you should do the 6MT/R180 swap first and drive the car with the 2.2 and low range for a while before tearing it apart for the 3.6.

Can you share a pic of the new bumper with the hood down and the grille in place?

Edited December 8, 2022 by slammo

[el_freddo]

9 hours ago, pontoontodd said:

does anyone remove the sheet metal under the vents and does it help at all with cooling?

We don’t get vents or scoops on NA models over here so I don’t know if they’re plugged or have air ducting under them. 
Vents would probably help dispel some heat as they would help with creating a Venturi effect at speed which would help with creating the low pressure zone you want in the engine bay to draw air through the radiator. Plugging the scoop would help too I reckon if it’s not ducted already. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[Numbchux]

I don't think that style vent would offer much in the way of cooling. Maybe at slow speed....but that's probably it.

There are many factory and aftermarket options that fit there that are more shaped to help create some negative pressure above the vent while moving that would likely have a bigger effect.

Then again, reversing the scoop would likely have a much bigger effect, if you don't have a TMIC or intake right below it.

[travelvw]

On 12/8/2022 at 9:38 AM, pontoontodd said:

I really was planning on getting the vents and scoop painted goldish with the bumper but you guys have convinced me that would look tacky. So I'll eventually paint them green but that's super low on the list.

Whaaaat?

K