pontoontodd Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 I'm at a crossroads now. I think this could go a combination of three ways: Trail riding at offroad parks Expedition / car camping trips Desert racing We've done a fair amount of trail riding. It's fun, pretty cheap, relatively low risk (you can walk out if necessary). It's also the easiest thing to get a bunch of people to go along with since it's usually a day or weekend trip. We've been around most of the off road parks within 500 miles of here now and that will probably start to get old soon. #1 mod if we keep doing that would be a low range. I took some measurements when we had the trans apart and I think I could make a high / low range and front / rear / 4WD selection mechanism in place of the center diff in the tailhousing. A 2:1 low range and 4WD would make this thing nearly unstoppable, and let us crawl when we'd like to. I'd really like to do more expo style trips. Car camping on dirt roads if you will. It's hard to get many people to get enough time off work at the same time to do these, and it's a good thing to have multiple vehicles and a bunch of people along for entertainment, splitting the driving, navigating, etc. The trips to the UP we've done have been fun and we're trying to figure one out this summer. I might do one in October/November in Arizona also. Biggest mod for that at the moment would be a bigger fuel tank, or at least one that doesn't leak when it's full. We've always wanted to do some desert racing. Vegas to Reno, Baja 1000, Dakar. In the Subaru we'd just be trying to finish within the time limit. This would definitely be the most expensive option. We've been seriously talking about running one in Texas this September. Their races are about 200 miles long on a 20 mile loop so it's not as involved as a big point to point desert race. At a minimum we'd have to put in: fuel cell(s) - I would put a rectangular 20-25 gallon cell in place of the spare tire well and we'd have to remove the stock gas tank, maybe put a ~3 gallon surge tank in its place. cage harnesses race seats There are also a lot of relatively minor things we'd need, like different lights, sealed battery, driveshaft hoop, possibly added door latches and we might need a SEMA bellhousing/cover. It would also make sense to put in a dust filter for the engine and a fresh air fan for our helmets. Not to mention a solid rear bumper for when we get nerfed. Yes, I've seen the thread on advrider (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=845950) of the guy who finished the Mexican 1000 in a Subaru. He is part of the inspiration here. We talked about getting a rust free car before we do all this work to it, but it might make more sense to just do it to a car we have first. Could always use the fuel cell, harnesses, seats, etc in a more solid car later and probably build it better using our experience with the first one. A strategy we discussed to get the most bang for the buck would be to build a few cars similar and stick together and carry our own spares. That would drastically reduce the cost of chase trucks, etc and/or the risk of being unable to fix the car in the middle of the desert. I've sort of been focused on the expo style trips, and to some extent could keep modifying the car to do all three, but it probably makes sense to choose one or two to focus on. Let me know your thoughts or if there's something I'm overlooking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 trail/and expedition.You will not be competive in desert racing because your mods would put you in the same class as 900 hp trophy trucks and buggies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted May 6, 2015 Author Share Posted May 6, 2015 trail/and expedition.You will not be competive in desert racing because your mods would put you in the same class as 900 hp trophy trucks and buggies. If I did a desert race in a Subaru it would be to try to finish within the time limit, not to be competitive. I did talk to BITD and they said we'd probably be in the 1800 class (the sportsman equivalent of class 1 / 1500). We might be able to run in class 7100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) class 3100 might be fair.You have long travel but only about as much as a stock TTB suspension. "Class 3100 Stock SUV is for mostly stock SUV’s. Rules are quite restrictive as to modifications. Essentially these vehicles are “stock”, if you can call full roll cages and long travel suspension stock." Edited May 7, 2015 by Uberoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 class 3100 might be fair.You have long travel but only about as much as a stock TTB suspension. "Class 3100 Stock SUV is for mostly stock SUV’s. Rules are quite restrictive as to modifications. Essentially these vehicles are “stock”, if you can call full roll cages and long travel suspension stock." For some reason that's not in the 2015 BITD rulebook. Sounds like it would be a good fit. Class 3000 is a spec Ecotec class, maybe that's replaced 3100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted May 8, 2015 Author Share Posted May 8, 2015 After checking over the long travel there are a few things that should be improved. Overall it's held up well considering how hard we've been beating on it. The front has a bunch of minor issues, most of which would be solved by going to long travel struts. We might even be able to get more travel than the a-arms that way. It would certainly be cheaper and simpler. The rear has always been noisy and I think we figured out why. The top spring perches are just bolted to the body which is not square with the strut. I briefly thought about that when we were building it but didn't realize it would be such a big deal. There is about a ten degree difference between the angle of the top perch and the strut, which causes the top spring to bend outward when compressed. This has worn some flats in the coils and has been wearing out our wiper seal retainers. It even broke one apart. Ten degrees didn't sound like much but it works out to about 3/4" over the width of the perch. Bolted back up to the car without the spring and compressed it most of the way and it's within 1/8" of square now. Hopefully this will solve the wear and noise issues in the rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted May 13, 2015 Author Share Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) The spring perch mod definitely fixed the noisy rear suspension. We've been tuning the shocks a bit, mainly adding a lot of damping in front, but it still needs more. I even let the guy who's helping us tune the shocks drop the front end of the car with at least a foot of air under the front tires I've become so confident in the suspension. For lots of reasons I think struts in the front would be better. I think we could even gain an inch or two of travel. I recently fixed the exhaust I smashed in Kentucky. This picture doesn't show it well but it was probably flattened to about half its original diameter. One of the wires for the front O2 sensor was broken and another one broke while I was splicing that one, so hopefully those are conducting electricity now: Had a 1.75" u bend lying around so I spliced part of that in: Edited May 13, 2015 by pontoontodd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 (edited) No, at the beginning your front wheels were straight,at the end they were cambered in-indicating lowered ride height.So something broke,bent, or slipped making the ride height lower.Its really apparent eight seconds onto the video after the jumps. One of my suspension experiments failed like that.I was trying to make long travel struts,and the bracket that bolts the strut to the knuckle broke the welds,so every bump made the strut sit lower in the knuckle.By the end of the day the driver side wheel had so much negative camber that the tire rubbed on the strut.There is a picture of it loaded on the trailer and it almost looks like a ball joint failed or something. I think you're right, although I'm not sure exactly when or how this has been happening. It seems to just gradually get worse. When we first built it the upper arm mounts would shift on the subframe, but that doesn't seem to be happening anymore. We started to bend at least one rod end but that hasn't happened in a while. It's possible the outer part of the arm is bending or the bracket on the spindle is moving but it doesn't look like it. All reasons to just build front struts for it. The other thing on the top of my list now is the fuel tank / fuel cell. The current tank really has to go. It leaks when it's anywhere near full which is annoying at a minimum. Despite replacing the siphoning mechanism (which I tried from two different cars) with a transfer pump, it still occasionally starves out of fuel on hard right hand turns below 1/2 tank. It's much better with the pump than it was with the siphon, but still annoying. My current thought is to cut out the spare tire well (which can't hold an oversized tire) and hang a 20-30 gallon fuel cell there. Put a flat piece of sheet metal in the "trunk" to cover it up. The main thing I haven't figured out here is how to run the fill neck. Most of the standard tanks have a center fill. I already have a 3 gallon fuel cell laying around I'd use as a surge tank where the stock tank / pump is located. Already have the transfer pump. I'd probably run an external fuel pump. More flow than stock might be good for future power adders but low noise and high reliability are my priorities. So here are my questions: If I use a standard fuel cell where the spare tire well is, how should I route the filler? Anyone know of a standard 20-30 gallon fuel cell with the fill neck somewhat near the side? Is there a high pressure pump that I can mount and plumb externally that's fairly quiet and super reliable? Edited May 18, 2015 by pontoontodd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share Posted May 22, 2015 One of the things that happened in Kentucky when I hit a big rock too fast was some damage to the right front control arm mounts. As you can see it bent the aluminum bracket so I replaced that: Also damaged the front mount: So I got that back into shape, welded the crack, and turned up a slug and welded it on to reinforce the hole: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 (edited) This is what the underside of a Subaru Outback looks like mostly stock for reference: We did find a couple of things upon disassembly. One was that one of the weights on the front of the subframe was gone and the other one was about to fall off: Those are some kind of tuned mass dampers, right? There were also cracks at the bottom of the stamped crossmember on the body above where the subframe bolts onto the stamped frame rails. These appeared to be mainly due to corrosion. Picture is blurry but you get the idea. Disassembly was a lot easier than I expected. Really only ran into a few badly rusted bolts. Pile of parts removed: Here is our blank canvas: Cut a big hole where the spare tire and muffler used to be that just fits the 22 gallon fuel cell. I have an idea for a low profile fill neck. It hangs a little lower than the trailer hitch but it's closer to the axle. Plan on having a frame underneath it, possibly tying into or replacing what used to be the gas tank guard, probably with a tube right behind the rear diff to protect that too. Leaning toward removing the stock bumper and hitch and making a fabricated bumper for the rear and welding the receiver to it. I might paint the can black so it doesn't stick out. Unfortunately the small fuel cell I have will not fit so I have to find a different surge tank. Any suggestions on surge tank and external pump? Can the stock pump be used externally or will it overheat? I thought about mounting a stock pump/pickup in the surge tank but I'm a bit concerned about the wiring. I have seen two wire bulkhead connectors so I guess I could use one of those. Also, can anyone find a diagram of what exactly all these vent hoses do? There were at least three from the top of the tank to that black box and one to the front. The manual I have doesn't explain all of them. Edited May 25, 2015 by pontoontodd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 Made some progress on the back end of the car in the past few weeks. 2" angle iron to support and locate the fuel cell. Plan on at least bolting these to the floor. Thought about welding them to the floor originally but probably won't. Also originally planned on adding two pieces front to rear, one bolted to either side of the fuel cell, but probably won't. Filler tube is about the same level as the angle irons. Plan is to cut some big pieces of foam once we have the other lines in place to put the floor on. I'll just put the stock cardboard and carpet in for now, eventually would have to make something out of sheet metal if we go desert racing. Still have to add a return fitting, probably on the fill plate. Rear bumper was easier to make than I thought it would be. Sticks out farther than the stock steel bumper. Easier to back up to a tree, etc without worrying about blowing out the rear glass. Easier to throw a recovery strap around it too. These side rails stick out a little past the rear fenders and taillights. It's too late to keep the fenders from being dented, but at least should protect the taillights when I slide into a tree. Stock plastic bumper cover fits over it like the front one. Just have to add a few caps, weld, and paint that. I'll probably gusset where the 2" square tubes (that go into the frame rails) come out and connect with the 4" tube. Unfortunately the 3 gallon cell I had wouldn't fit so I got a 1 gallon fuel cell as a surge tank. Mounted a Walbro 255lph pump I had from another project to it. Routed the exhaust over the rear crossmember. Plenty of room for the muffler where the gas tank used to be and not much room where the fuel cell is now. Right now the front of the skid frame attaches to the rear subframe mounts and the rear attaches to the tow hooks. Working on making brackets to connect the middle to the tapped holes by the lateral link mounts on the rear crossmember. Originally had it mounted to the holes near the front of the rear diff in the picture below but got rid of those for a couple reasons. One, we could move it up an inch or so. Two, that normally flexes relative to the rest of the subframe so I'll probably cut the points off those mitered joints for clearance. Probably add some tabs where those mounts are to keep this from bending up too high. Also plan on adding some type of connection(s) from that tube behind the rear diff up to the angle iron under the fuel cell and some support in the middle of the bottom of the fuel cell. Plan on adding a few tubes welded to that tube between the tow hooks and bolted to the rear bumper. How should I finish the exhaust? I thought about a downturn or side dump. Leaning towards angling it down some but have it come short of the angled tubes I plan to add. I've packed the stock exhaust with dirt a bunch of times when going backwards, but it sticks way behind and below the stock steel bumper. Plan on welding a receiver to the bottom of the bumper tube. Departure angle should be slightly better without the hitch, diff should be more protected from backing into things, and lateral link mounts are much better protected. Anybody have a diagram of how all the fuel tank vent hoses connect to the carbon canister, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ioku Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I dont have a diagram for the eval hoses but I will say that on my 98 I just ditched that charcoal canister but left all the sensors and solenoids pluged in and have never goten any codes. I got rid of it because I figured I would just smash it hanging back there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 I dont have a diagram for the eval hoses but I will say that on my 98 I just ditched that charcoal canister but left all the sensors and solenoids pluged in and have never goten any codes. I got rid of it because I figured I would just smash it hanging back there Good to know, I'll probably leave it all in for now but might wind up doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 Finally have the fuel cell support / diff protection and rear bumper welded, just needs paint. Most other aspects of the fuel system and exhaust are figured out now and mostly done. Should have shocks next week so I can make the front struts and get this thing back on the road (and off). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 The bottom frame is painted and loosely bolted in. I should have welded it as much as I could while it was in the car. I had it tack welded pretty well and did all the welding off the car and it distorted a bit. The exhaust is all tack welded now, just have to finish weld that and I plan on painting it since some of it is not aluminized. I plan on angle cutting the outlet/tip so it's less likely to get packed full of dirt when backing up. In the picture below you can sort of see the little brackets that mount the middle of this frame to the bottom of the stock subframe. Below you can see where it will bolt into the stock tie down points. You can also kind of see the support running across the middle of the fuel cell. In the last picture you can see how this frame ties into the rear bumper. Also welded a receiver on the bumper. There are some gussets on the backside of the bumper not visible in this picture. Mainly more painting and reassembly left now. I also have all the parts and made most of the brackets and tabs for the front struts, so I'll start on those soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 Painted the exhaust and fuel cell and got that all together and hooked up. Fired it up a few days ago. Still have to put the rear suspension back together, including replacing a wheel bearing. Started mocking up the long travel front struts too, so far so good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyfun Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Sorry if you already mentioned it, I dug through the thread and didn't see. But would you mind giving us the brand and model numbers on the front and rear long travel struts you're using? I'm very interested in rigging up a similar setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 Sorry if you already mentioned it, I dug through the thread and didn't see. But would you mind giving us the brand and model numbers on the front and rear long travel struts you're using? I'm very interested in rigging up a similar setup. They are Fox 2.0 smooth bodied reservoir shocks. I had to modify the shafts to attach to the bottom of the strut housings, which I made from scratch. You might want to wait until we've put some more miles on them, but I would definitely be willing to build you a set. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zupafly Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Just made an account here to sign up for a set of these babies too. Definitely put me down on a list once you polish out the kinks and start making them for ppl. Awesome work, Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 Just made an account here to sign up for a set of these babies too. Definitely put me down on a list once you polish out the kinks and start making them for ppl. Awesome work, Cheers! They definitely make the car a lot more fun and durable. I'm happy to see interest in these but keep in mind the shocks and springs alone are close to $2000. Then we have to modify the shafts, make housings, assemble bearings, seals, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 Front struts are coming together well. Hope to have the car back on the road by the end of the weekend. To see some more comments, check out these threads: http://www.woodsbuggy.com/forum/pictures-and-videos/17775 http://www.reddit.com/r/battlewagon/comments/3d9y60/this_guy_custom_fabricated_11_longtravel_struts/ Also, my favorite recent youtube comment: If you're havin' car troubles I feel bad for you son, I got a 99 Subaru and this ditch ain't one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zupafly Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 They definitely make the car a lot more fun and durable. I'm happy to see interest in these but keep in mind the shocks and springs alone are close to $2000. Then we have to modify the shafts, make housings, assemble bearings, seals, etc. Yes, definitely I was thinking unless I have 5k to not even bother talking to you. Also on a side note do you think a forester or maybe baja would be able to yield more travel? Or are they all built the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 Yes, definitely I was thinking unless I have 5k to not even bother talking to you. Also on a side note do you think a forester or maybe baja would be able to yield more travel? Or are they all built the same? I don't have a lot of experience with different Subaru models. We might make a long travel setup for my friend's 2000 Forester, so I'd know for sure then. From what little I've looked at it, I doubt we'd get much more travel than this. The stock suspension is basically the same as my Outback. It doesn't have the subframe spacers though, so without those it might wind up with less travel. Smaller tires would allow us to get a little more compression travel. No idea about the Bajas or later model Subarus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 So I forgot to post this picture, this is what the fuel cell looks like from inside the car. One of the things I had to do was change the angle of the lower balljoint on the lower arm and shorten it a little since the struts have less camber change than the a-arms. It was binding near full compression before I did this. Another reason to ditch the a-arms. I think the subframe bolts were starting to bend a little, and this spacer is definitely cracked (upper left). Not going anywhere, but probably not a good sign. Welded in new reservoir mounts. The strut swings around quite a bit when you steer since it's so far away from the spindle for tire clearance. In this location the reservoir clears the strut, tire, and lower arm. More pictures soon. Finally drove the car last night. The front struts seem to work well. I was hitting some things - ramped alley entrances, parking dividers - that I would never hit that hard in the Impreza or I'd be walking home and it just soaks them up. High pressure fuel pump makes some noise at idle. Hope to really give it a beating this weekend, PM me if you're interested in meeting us at the Badlands on Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) I tried mounting the upper spring perches to the body like I did in the rear, but there is too much angle change in the front struts since they're shorter and swing around when you steer. This was the best short term solution I could come up with. In the future I'd probably just remake the top cap and spring perch as one piece. We could probably even have a fitting for the hose at the edge of the spring perch and have a more traditional stud mount rather than the shock loop. Here are the parts for the front welded, painted, and ready to install. LF strut installed. Edited November 25, 2015 by pontoontodd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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