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wtdash

EJ22 to EJ25 ECU swap causes P0441 CEL -

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Hi,

 

Final edit (?): Installed a '98 Legacy Outback ECU: 22611AD60A / 1Z

 

I confirmed it had the charcoal canister in the back. So far after numerous starts and stops (i think it takes 2 cycles of the evap system to cause the CEL), and 3 days of driving NO CEL. Calling it good.

 

Original Post:

 

I have a '96 Legacy L w/the EJ22E.

 

I read that the '96 OB/GT EJ25D ECU may give me a few more HP/Torque and higher redline to go w/my Delta cams.

 

I installed the ECU (plug and play) and after a few minutes of driving the CEL pops on. I check it and get:

P0441-evap control system purge flow fault / P0441 Evaporative Emission Control System Incorrect Purge Flow

Read more at: http://www.obd-codes.com/p0441
Copyright OBD-Codes.com

 

I cleared the code and it comes back w/in a few minutes of driving.

 

 

I plugged in the Green diagnostic connectors under the dash and the Purge Valve Solenoid clicks, so it's getting power.

 

Does anyone know if the 2.2 used a different purge valve than the 2.5? Looking on OpposedForces.com '96 does appear to be a transition year. But that site only lists one part number (even though the diagram shows an EJ22E and EJ22EZ - '97 & '98- reference).

 

I have another purge valve in my collection but its connector is different and won't plug in. I'd need a different pigtail to splice in so didn't try it.

 

Edit: Tried a '99 Legacy Outback ECU and got error P1116 - Engine Torque Control Cut Signal Circuit Low Input


Read more: http://engine-codes.com/p1116_subaru.html#ixzz3n3RLQhHg

 

Most likely due to that fact that the '99 was a transition year and the ECU and TCU don't like each other much.  The error only appeared after a couple of restarts. Never drove the car to see how it ran....Looking for a '98 next.

 

Thanks

TD

Edited by wtdash

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Don't know if it needs a different valve.

The 2.5 may have used a different sensor for checking evap system pressure.

 

Some of the 2.5s used the MAP sensor under the hood to measure fuel tank pressure during the evap purge. This is how it determines flow, by looking at the MAP signal while the purge valve is commanded open.

 

Do you have access to the car you got the ECU from? If you do, you can probably get the pressure sources switching solenoid from that car, and follow the vacuum hose routing for that car and see if it will work on yours.

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Do you have access to the car you got the ECU from?

No. Bought it from ebait for $35.

 

But the next time I go to the local salvage yard, I'll take a look. 

 

The other thing this brings to mind is 'How do the '95-'98 EJ22 engines work as a replacement in the '96-'99 EJ25 cars?' If it's the 'pressure sources switching solenoid', that would make sense as that's over on the passenger strut tower w/the MAP sensor*  so it stays w/the car - not the engine.

 

So, the purge valve is likely not the cause........

 

Thanks again!

 

Td

 

*This is not the same as the MAP used instead of the MAF on non-turbo Subarus from ~'00-'04.

Edited by wtdash

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Ah ok.

You MAY be able to modify your existing PSSSV to work. On one end there's a round black cylinder. It's just a filter stuck on a nipple. Twist/pull that off and run a hose from that nipple to a T in the line between the Purge solenoid and the line coming from the canister. Someone posted a photo of the hose routing diagram for the 25D a while ago (couldn't find it on a quick search). I THINK that's how it was done.

 

No gurntees, but it won't hurt anything to try.

Edited by Fairtax4me

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it sounds like you have a 98 ECU.

(if you have confirmed the ECU part number as 96,  please ignore this post)

 

 

the only change between 96 - 97 and 98 - 99  is the charcoal canister.

it was moved from front to rear.

 

a 98 outback will drive just fine on a 97 ECU,
but you will get a whatever trouble code, purge valve flow issue.......

 

the 98 wires from the ecu ''purge valve pin'' is routed to the rear ,

not the egine bay.

 

so an ECU from the wrong ''year group'' will throw a ''phantom'' code.

 

i learned this when the ECU in my 98 obw got wet.

my ecu from a 97 GT drove the car,

but i got the purge flow code.

 

double check the part numbers of both the old and new ECUs.

are they both for the 96??

 

http://opposedforces.com/parts

 

or, is your cars buils date close to 6/95?

it is possible a ''95 car'' will trow a code on a 96 ECU.

 

generally i trust subarus to make all 95s the same,

and to change to new parts in the 96 MY.

but there are stories of ''cars on the cusp''

where some 95s got 96 parts,

or vice versa.

not common, but possible.

Edited by johnceggleston

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Im running a 97 2.5 Legacy ECU in my 97 OBS 2.2. I also get a check engine light, but I thought it was from the 2.5 having an EGR and the 2.2 manual does not. It runs great though, no problems. Have had it installed for close to a year.

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it sounds like you have a 98 ECU.

(if you have confirmed the ECU part number as 96,  please ignore this post)

 

Just to clarify:

1996 Legacy L

- 1/96 build date

22611AC341 / 1Q

 

According to the attached - opposedforces.com - this is from a '95-'96 build date Outback with the EJ25D

- 1996-1999 EJ25D ECU / ECM / EGI part numbers for GT / LSi / Outback / SUS

 

I don't have a charcoal canister by the front passenger side near the ABS module / pump.

 

Thanks

post-3804-0-41687800-1441856971_thumb.jpg

post-3804-0-68544000-1441856988_thumb.jpg

post-3804-0-72995200-1441856996_thumb.jpg

Edited by wtdash

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Ah ok.

You MAY be able to modify your existing PSSSV to work. On one end there's a round black cylinder. It's just a filter stuck on a nipple. Twist/pull that off and run a hose from that nipple to a T in the line between the Purge solenoid and the line coming from the canister. Someone posted a photo of the hose routing diagram for the 25D a while ago (couldn't find it on a quick search). I THINK that's how it was done.

 

No gurntees, but it won't hurt anything to try.

 

Got it...I'll give it a try.

 

thanks

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Im running a 97 2.5 Legacy ECU in my 97 OBS 2.2. I also get a check engine light, but I thought it was from the 2.5 having an EGR and the 2.2 manual does not. It runs great though, no problems. Have had it installed for close to a year.

 

I'd recommend  checking the CODE..... If there's something else besides the EGR valve you won't know it.

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did you drive the car with the other ECU and no code?

did the ECU swap trigger the code?

or you got the car with the code and swapped the ECU to fix it ?

 

 

 

I have a '96 Legacy L w/the EJ22E.

 

ok, maybe this....

 

the ej22e you have installed is from a 98??????

and when it was swapped, (if you swapped it please disregard.)

the intake manifold did not have the pipes for the front mounted charcoal canister.

so they just discarded the canister altogether.

 

i realize this is a stretch,

 

but does the car have a canister under the right rear?

i didn't think they did that until 98.

so if none in the rear, and none in the front,

then you have fou8nd the cause of the code,

maybe.

Edited by johnceggleston

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did you drive the car with the other ECU and no code?

did the ECU swap trigger the code?

or you got the car with the code and swapped the ECU to fix it ?

- Correct

- Correct

- No Sir...swapped ECU for possible 'performance enhancement' :-)

 

Attached is a pic under the Right Rear of my '96. I also didn't think they moved them to the rear 'til later....but there it is.

 

Thanks

post-3804-0-03058400-1441999751_thumb.jpg

Edited by wtdash

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the only thing i can think of is to

try an ecu from an ej25 car with a rear canister,

like a 98 outback or GT.

given the expense and unknowns involved,

do you know someone who would lend you an ECU.?

 

i know this sounds dumb since you already have one spec-ed for that year/ car,

but that's what i would try.

 

 

EDIT:

it may be a moot point.

regardless of the code,

have you noticed any difference in performance?

Edited by johnceggleston

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Yes, 96 Legacy L had the canister at the back.

I think the 2.5 cars still had the round can at the front.

 

I don't think the ECU is looking for any valves or other evap stuff that isn't already on the car. If it's looking for a valve that isn't there it will set a code for the circuit for that valve.

 

Its possible one of the valves at the back isn't getting any command to open/close, and the ECU is Not looking for it. (Valve wasn't present on the 2.5 car)

That can be determined by putting the ECU in test mode and checking all of them for operation. If they all work then they're at least being told to open/close. Whether they're being told at the correct time/order is impossible to tell without a scan tool or SSM.

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Thanks for the feedback/info.

 

I'll try modifying the vacuum lines as suggested above (post #4) and if that doesn't work, probably just forget about it. Might grab one @ the wrecking yard on next visit.

 

I've already removed the 2.5 ECU since I don't like the CEL being on. No issues/ no CEL w/the original 2.2 ECU back in.

 

Car seemed to run OK but I didn't drive it much to verify.

 

TD

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I've already removed the 2.5 ECU since I don't like the CEL being on. No issues/ no CEL w/the original 2.2 ECU back in.

 

 

in my mind,

this confirms that the ej25 ecu does not match the wiring in the car.

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You MAY be able to modify your existing PSSSV to work. On one end there's a round black cylinder. 
It's just a filter stuck on a nipple. Twist/pull that off and run a hose from that nipple to a T in the line between the Purge solenoid and the line coming from the canister. 

 

Well, I give it a go and it's a No Go on the vacuum modification. Still popped the CEL.

 

Next time I'm @ the local Pull and Save yard I'll see what the EJ25 cars have for a purge valve....but still doesn't explain how the ol' EJ22 works w/out a CEL on the 2.5>>2.2 swaps. Unless the 2.5 ECU is 'less picky'?

 

Edit: Per my Subaru parts supplier:

 

The 96 2.2 cpc solenoid part# 16102AA080 and the 96 2.5 cpc solenoid part# 14774AA271. I have both solenoids in stock.

 

EDIT: Found this NASIOC POST that has some relevant info. And this info, which may (not) apply:

 

 

Bumping this for further info.

 

Had to replace the purge control solenoid valve on my 1998 Outback Limited wagon -- automatic, 2.5L EJ25D DOHC motor.

 

Gave my VIN to the local Subaru dealer parts counter folks, and they sold me Subaru purge control solenoid valve, part number 14774AA271, which was supposed to be the correct purge control solenoid valve for my VIN. But, when I tried to plug my harness connector into the replacement purge control solenoid valve, my factory harness connector plug was too SMALL to slip up onto the replacement purge control solenoid valve plug.

 

Took part back to Subaru dealer parts counter, and their Subaru parts guru got involved in sleuthing this out -- as he was looking on the computerized parts diagram, according to my VIN, he noticed that there was a SECOND recommended ALTERNATIVE purge control solenoid valve in SOME instances, for my VIN -- Subaru part number 16102AA080 was ordered (labeled VLV AY-DUTY SOL on box). This purge control solenoid valve harness plug has the correct SMALLER plug, and installed without any further problems.

 

Apparently, the purge control solenoid valve, part number 14774AA271, is designed to be mounted on the DRIVER'S side of the intake manifold, and has a slightly larger, different plug than the purge control solenoid valve, part number 16102AA080, which uses a slightly smaller plug, and mounts under the PASSENGER'S side of the intake manifold. Valve assemblies appear to be physically the same, just different harness plug connectors.

 

FYI for those folks who have run into this issue with the dealer's parts system not clearly showing the TWO possible parts of similar appearance, BOTH of which were used in the same year/VIN number range. 

 

Easy to change -- took all of 5 minutes on a cold motor, and fixed my CEL error.

 

 

Td

Edited by wtdash

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just a guess,

the ej222 car , your car, has the canister in the rear.

i'll bet none of the ej25 cars that year had the same.

the wiring harness in the cars is different,

and therefore the ECUs are different.

 

but again,

just a guess.

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Well, I give it a go and it's a No Go on the vacuum modification. Still popped the CEL.

 

Next time I'm @ the local Pull and Save yard I'll see what the EJ25 cars have for a purge valve....but still doesn't explain how the ol' EJ22 works w/out a CEL on the 2.5>>2.2 swaps. Unless the 2.5 ECU is 'less picky'?

 

Td

It works because when you swap the engine the purge valve doesn't change. You replace it, but you replace it with the same valve. The engine is just a vacuum source. The purge valve merely turns the vacuum on or off.

 

This is something to do with the pressure source solenoid and the way the 2.5 ECU uses that to check evap pressure. It determines purge flow by monitoring evap system pressure.

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Well....I came across another tidbit that I overlooked: California vs. Federal ECUs.

 

My car appears to be built for Cali as the 2.2 ECU showed up as :  P/N: 22611ac930 -  2N      It is defined as "low emissions".

 

And the AutoCheck /VIN check I did on it shows it started life in LA, as a rental.

 

Been doing some searching and haven't found anything definitive about the differences*, but would imagine the ECU's may be able to tell.

 

The 2.5 ECU is Federal as far as I know.

 

 

 

 

*I have both 02 sensors in the Front CatCon, vs one in the front and one in rear CC. The attached shows the O2 sensors for Cali. cars #27 and #41; #28 is for Fed versions.

post-3804-0-59694000-1442637175_thumb.jpg

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