Brianmitchtay Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) Howdy gang, my neighbor knocked on my door this morning to tell me to move my car for the snow plow and I couldn't get it to fire up. I was driving all over town yesterday and aside from the usual quirks everything was fine, started the first time every time, even late into the evening as temps were below freezing. Last night it dropped down to around 18 F and now even in the relative 34-36 F warmth of a sunny day I can't get it to do anything other than crank, it cranks but there's no combustion. This is a SPFI ea82 on an 87 GL wagon I checked the oil first and it was about a quart low, filled that up and saw no difference, so we tried jumping it off the plow truck because it seemed to be cranking a bit slowly and even then couldn't get it to fire. It cranked more quickly with the booster cable connected but still not even a sign of ignition. I've pulled the cover off the throttle body and see fuel spitting from the injector when trying to start, pulled a spark plug and it sparks, not wildly far, but there's spark, doesn't seem to have any airflow restrictions (Although I have a spare IAC valve I pulled at the junkyard a while back so I might clean it up and then swap it to see if that makes a difference) Only recent change is when I put on new timing belts two weeks ago it started to rain as we were finishing and since then the battery gauge has only worked occasionally. So I'm inclined to believe that something is off electrically, not sure what though. About to start looking up the wiring for the battery gauge and see if I can get it to show anything. After that I'll check the resistance on the ignition coil and see if it's still in spec, (it was a tiny bit off when I got it new and installed it in August) If I had access to a fuel pressure gauge I would be putting one in my line to verify my fuel pressure is correct Looking around the forums I've seen some people having issues with cold starts related to the MAF sensor, so maybe I'll pull that off and very gently clean it up. The FSM points a big finger at the Crank angle sensor and the ignition coil in it's "No initial combustion" section of the engine troubleshooting table. Do you guys think that's something that could die as a result of a deep dive into sub freezing temperatures? Any other thoughts or suggestions? Lately the slogan with this GL wagon as a daily driver has been "Always one repair away" Hopefully it doesn't get to a point where I have to give up and buy another car :/ Edited October 31, 2018 by Brianmitchtay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee2 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 recheck your timing belts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmitchtay Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 Ha! I just walked down with my list of things to check with the multimeter etc and thought I would give it one last try just for the hell of it and it fired right up, first go after not more than a half second of cranking. Drove it around the block and the battery gauge is working and everything. Frustrating. I guess that battery was too cold this morning and it took all day in the sun to warm up enough? I'm not sure honestly, still stumped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmitchtay Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, Dee2 said: recheck your timing belts If that's a joke it's pretty funny, Dee, seeing as how many times that's the solution to my silly problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 If it has not run since the belts, #1 thing to check. Also, if these flood, they act dead. Hold the gas to the floor. Lots of cranking. Eventually, you get a sputter. then a few more. Then finally, it catches, running crappy at first then smooths out. Other thing that can cause cold no start - CTS. Coolant Temperature Sensor. The 2 wire one on the lower thermostat housing. Sparks should be able to get insanely long, like over 1/2 inch. An easy test - spray a 1 second shot of carb cleaner into the intake boot. If it fires a little, then it's lack of fuel or flooded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Sounds like it was flooded. OR you have an intermittent problem. I once had one die on me. Went and called home, to have my wife push me home with her car. She got there, I tried the starter one last time, and boom, it ran. If the battery was cranking it, it was good enough to start it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmitchtay Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) I've been driving it for 2 weeks no problems after changing the belts, so not worried there. Hmm, yeah maybe I flooded it before it had enough oil in it to turn over easily and then never cleared it all the way. I replaced the CTS a month or so back, the 2 wire one. I really really hope I just flooded it and that there's not some cold weather gremlin hiding out with some unknown intermittent problem. One of my next things to do here is put in a battery and engine block heater just in case, I guess I should get on it. haha Edited October 31, 2018 by Brianmitchtay Condensing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmitchtay Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) . Edited October 31, 2018 by Brianmitchtay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmitchtay Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 Well I don't think it was just a one time thing with the engine being flooded. Just tried to start it up to head out this evening and it's the same story as this morning, cranks but won't fire, so whatever it is the cold makes it worse. Battery gauge showing about 10v, it showed around 14 with the car running earlier today. Haven't put a multimeter straight to it yet though. I'm guessing that either the Alternator is dying and not charging the battery enough, or the battery is just bad so it won't hold a charge. Seems odd though because the old owner said he installed a remanufactured alternator in 2013, and I bought this battery in July, so neither are so terribly old as to be broken. Next time it's warm enough out to get it started I guess I'll drive into the big city and have them both tested at a shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 14 v while running is normal, should be fine with charging. 10V at rest is low. There may be a partially failed diode in the alternator or other electric leak drawing the battery down. Sometimes batteries go bad early. Normal 5 years is max. I always put in the biggest one that will fit in the space available. But if it is cranking anywhere near normally, the battery is not why it won't fire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmitchtay Posted November 5, 2018 Author Share Posted November 5, 2018 (edited) Well I finally got it to fire up for me, I pretty much narrowed it down to frozen water in the fuel lines blocking the flow of fuel. Either that or the fuel pump dying on me and either not running, or not putting out enough pressure when it's cold. Today since it was warmer (34F) I was plugging in the green test connectors and turning the key to on to see if the fuel pump would cycle on with the solenoids like it's supposed to (it hadn't been with it below 30 out), and after a half hour with a space heater inside the car, it finally came on and the car fired right up. Ran really really rough and sputtered all sorts of terrible smoke, which I sort of expected considering I'd thrown a bottle of HEET in there to try and get the water out. What I wasn't expecting was for the CEL to come on and flash 51, the MT Neutral Switch code. Car would die if I took my foot off the gas until it was warm, and then it ran like garbage and was smoking like mad from the O2 sensor/front Cat. Not sure if the HEET was burning too hot and ruining the catalytic converter or what, but even then it seems weird that the smoke would be coming out of the sensor etc. hard to tell for sure if it really was or not. Lots of smoke around and off that first cat anyway. Once it was warm I killed the engine and restarted it, this time no more flashing 51 code or CEL, but barely enough power to get me up a 3% grade and down the street. Funny thing is it was coming back to a perfect 750rpm idle, weird eh? must be related, maybe the neutral switch. My best guess at this point is that the fuel pump is going bad on me and isn't putting out enough pressure (hence no power). Luckily I have a spare pump I bought on here from another forum dweller, haven't tested it yet but hopefully it works. Tomorrow I'm gonna take advantage of my AAA and have it towed into Anchorage for the local Soob Specialist to look at and see what they think. Dave, or any of you other gurus have any experience with the Neutral switch? I'm not sure what to make of that in all this. Edited November 5, 2018 by Brianmitchtay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 The neutral switch is only to prevent cranking if the car is in gear. Dead fuel pump, and or contaminated fuel is possibly why its running poorly. T a pressure gauge in the supply line at the TBI input port, then oyu know if the pressure is ok. 21PSI. Does not take much lower to start causing problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmitchtay Posted November 5, 2018 Author Share Posted November 5, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, DaveT said: The neutral switch is only to prevent cranking if the car is in gear.Dead fuel pump, and or contaminated fuel is possibly why its running poorly. T a pressure gauge in the supply line at the TBI input port, then oyu know if the pressure is ok. 21PSI. Does not take much lower to start causing problems. Yeah I'm thinking the same thing. I put an entire bottle of HEET in, which they say treats 20 Gallons, probably have about 15 gallons in the tank, so it's definitely more ppm than it should be, but I have a hard time imagining that causing it to run SO terribly. Once it's warm I can get it up to 10 mph in first gear if I feather the gas juuust right. any gears higher than first and it sputters and starts to die. Good to know what the Neutral switch is for. I had read in a couple other forum posts that it was related to how the ECU controls Idling, but those people were all talking about newer models, OBDII equipped ones. Edited November 5, 2018 by Brianmitchtay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 I agree, the slightly high dose of HEET should not be the problem. No, you can't go by what newer cars do. They are way more complicated. Does sound like possible fuel starvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee2 Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 A lot of your description sounds like the symptoms of a failing fuel pump. I had the same symptoms when mine was failing. If it has trouble starting next time you try, rap on the fuel pump a few times with something like a screwdriver handle, may take more than one attempt. If it gets you going, then that points to a failing fuel pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmitchtay Posted November 7, 2018 Author Share Posted November 7, 2018 Well, finally heard back from the shop and they say that it's the ECU not sending power to the fuel pump. I'm having them swap in another ECU that they have and we'll see if that fixes anything. I have a feeling that it won't but I'm trying to be optimistic. If I were looking at this car as a financial investment (I'm not) I would say it has been a massive failure, now sitting at over $7000 put into this 1987 GL over the course of the last year and two months. Oof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robm2 Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Ouch! That is half the cost it was new! I suspect your problem is with the fuel pump relay. They get old and flaky, and stop working. Often, they are temperature sensitive, although it is usually heat that makes them kick out. It is one of the relays in a group of 4 up under the dash board, above the ECU. All the relays in that bunch are the same, so you can swap one of the others in to test it. A quick and dirty fix is to run a wire directly from the battery to the red wire on the FP wiring harness. You can get to it under the back seat, inside the car. I ran like this for 4 months before I figured out what the problem was. The pump would work for awhile, then kick out. I would connect the wire, and carry on. This was when the relay was flaky, not failed. I could do this from the driver's seat. Good luck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmitchtay Posted November 9, 2018 Author Share Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) On 11/7/2018 at 2:13 PM, robm2 said: Ouch! That is half the cost it was new! I suspect your problem is with the fuel pump relay. They get old and flaky, and stop working. Often, they are temperature sensitive, although it is usually heat that makes them kick out. It is one of the relays in a group of 4 up under the dash board, above the ECU. All the relays in that bunch are the same, so you can swap one of the others in to test it. A quick and dirty fix is to run a wire directly from the battery to the red wire on the FP wiring harness. You can get to it under the back seat, inside the car. I ran like this for 4 months before I figured out what the problem was. The pump would work for awhile, then kick out. I would connect the wire, and carry on. This was when the relay was flaky, not failed. I could do this from the driver's seat. Good luck. I think you nailed it! Take a look at these pictures and let me know what you think, definitely some corrosion on the fuel pump relay, I'd be willing to say that it's the culprit. Which is hilarious and sort of terrible because I just paid ~$465 yesterday to get my car back after they installed a new ECU into the car. I went out this morning at about 24F and the car wouldn't start. Ha! So I took it upon myself to pull this little bad boy out and now I've got another one on the way from rockauto for $10 after shipping. Denso Part #056700-5260 on the original relay, but looking up that number Rock auto lists STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS RY51, and Denso #567-0047 as acceptable replacements, so hopefully the other denso part number has the poles set up the same way, I couldn't find a listing online that showed the relay diagram and the part number on it. Edited November 21, 2018 by Brianmitchtay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robm2 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Happy to be of service. You can test this by using one of the other relays beside it, in the same clump of 4. You may lose a headlight, so this is a daylight-only test. The other relays are identical in every way. The next one to go will be the heater blower relay. If you can find one of these cars at the wrecker, grab all the relays under the dash, and keep them handy for the next time one dies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmitchtay Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) On 11/14/2018 at 10:01 AM, robm2 said: Happy to be of service. You can test this by using one of the other relays beside it, in the same clump of 4. You may lose a headlight, so this is a daylight-only test. The other relays are identical in every way. The next one to go will be the heater blower relay. If you can find one of these cars at the wrecker, grab all the relays under the dash, and keep them handy for the next time one dies. Hmm, I didn't have the presence of mind to look at the condition of all the other relays under the dash, but I swapped out the instrument panel lighting relay for the fuel pump one so I could keep using the car in the interim, that relay looked to be in perfect condition. Today the new relay got here and now everything is back as it has been, It even looks like the shop might give me my $$ back since they essentially pretended to have fixed the problem and just charged me ~$500 for something I didn't even need! That's pretty sweet to get a $10 fix instead of half a grand! Plus I learned how relays work I cut the old relay open this evening just to see exactly how bad it was inside and also just to see how it works a bit better, here's a picture, for any curious souls. I didn't bother sawing the metal cover off the coil just to look at it because I was pretty done with hack sawing tiny things by this point. Definitely what was causing problems! Thanks again Robm2 Edited November 16, 2018 by Brianmitchtay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Taking things apart is a good way to learn about how they work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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