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FerGloyale

03 outback rear suspension on EA81 - T-bone 2.0

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So I had these pics posted in the "longtravel outbacks" thread.  but I thought that since this is really an EA81 build, I would start my own thread.

This is T-bone 37698309625_44d32c09ce_b.jpgT-bone hop by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

So here is the old EA 81 rear setup.  Tired torsions and extra plateing and liftblocks, along with teh already low hanging EA81 diff, make the rump roast of this guy the biggest problem.  Breakin axles and stubs....can't find any more good axles, so it's time to go. 36634850834_a5a9132c0d_k.jpgIMG_2594 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

I had thought about using an early Leggy or Forester setup.......but that would require full on strut mounts in teh back...which woud be lots of fab that there isn't room for.

So I'm using the entire rear setup from an 03 Outback.   Fitted with a Welded spider, 3.9 internal stub diff.  Working on finding a VLSD for longer term road trip use.  But for wheeling trips it's gotta be linclon locked for sure.

39818997223_1fcf3eaa16_k.jpgIMG_3451 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

I modified this subframe to have equal length lower arms....hopefully better travel range possible once I get the right shock setup.  For now it will use stock 03 outback shocks.

31842675787_5b136a2c22_k.jpgIMG_3455 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

45856846365_f057209e2b_k.jpgIMG_3445 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

46046773814_7f54993314_k.jpgIMG_3442 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

31842654667_7fbfd0a831_k.jpgIMG_3461 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

32958413328_dd2fbe88a7_k.jpgIMG_3473 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Here's the projected "full stuffed"  point.

46128790564_86f454546a_k.jpgIMG_3477 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Here's the forward mounting of the subframe.  Built mounting off of the old EA81 6" lift block (there is an EA81 torsion tube section between the body and the blocks)

32992070618_0602a02842_k.jpgIMG_3486 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

39902629453_1a45be0d14_k.jpgIMG_3487 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Sitting near ride height with wheels on. 

39902622393_629fe4f0a1_k.jpgIMG_3489 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

And here is resting on it's own shocks.  Literally it's just sitting on them....haven't actually made the shock mounts yet.  Also need to finalize the Front trailing arm mounts and the sliders for them that will tie into the front/center subframe I have built.

32992061968_3b7785db97_k.jpgIMG_3491 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

 

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nice . did you put those rear shocks on angle for purpose ? i was when i put spacers on my shocks and i didint put any spacer on arm my shock is allways on agle to one side because that spacer is straight and i thought it would be better spacer that goes on angle maybe .. but what happens when wheel goes fully  up ? you checked that ? 

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2 hours ago, scalman said:

nice . did you put those rear shocks on angle for purpose ? i was when i put spacers on my shocks and i didint put any spacer on arm my shock is allways on agle to one side because that spacer is straight and i thought it would be better spacer that goes on angle maybe .. but what happens when wheel goes fully  up ? you checked that ? 

Just kinda where it worked out.  I think since I am using the very max limit of the downtravel, it worked out with the shock at a fairly angled stance.  If you look at the front mount of the subframe though, it couldn't really be moved much further "up" and in straight line.  It seems fine when compressed, although I may have tucked it inwatrd too much.  At compression, there is an inward angle to the strut.  Like towards the centerline.  I didn't want to get the mount too close to the tire....but I might have overcompensated.

Whatever......this is temporary until I can drop ~$600-800 on a pair of fox long travel coilovers...........Or make something out of some F-150 rears or some crap.  IDK....mpre to come.

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maybe you can help me with other isue then too, i just want to know is it my front shocks that are bad , so i did lift 2'' with strut spacers and removed sway bars,  both front and rear. so those shocks can drop more down as i understand now and could it be that they like maxing its limits by droping thats why i have that weird sound when i dirve faster on speed bumps. like if its higher speed bump i drive on it maybe 40-50km/h and i think my front wheels are geting in air for some time and then its that nasty sound not like knock but like some rubbery kinda sound. like my shocks droped too much and when they landing they make that wierd kinda floping sound like vacum sound or something . 

could it be that if shocks on my car where never changed  yet from factory they just allready tired . most important if i put new shocks like KYB ones will that problem be gone and i could push them harder , well at least go through rough terain without any bad sounds ??

thanks. 

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I love how you guys can just go and do this then drive!  

I’d have to get engineering approval just to even think about welding in mounts for that rear end let alone modifiying the length of the arms!

It’s looking good too!  Mean with those tyres :D

Cheers 

Bennie

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5 hours ago, el_freddo said:

I love how you guys can just go and do this then drive!  

I’d have to get engineering approval just to even think about welding in mounts for that rear end let alone modifiying the length of the arms!

It’s looking good too!  Mean with those tyres :D

Cheers 

Bennie

Yeah.

Not possible in every state here, but most you can.   In Oregon there are very few rules about how a lift can be done and no inspection to check it if their were.  "lift kits" must be "made in such a way as to be safe"  is basically what the law says.  Really vague.  

Of course, if I was to ever cause an accident, my insurance could throw a fit and refuse to cover the liability...maybe.

I will point out that nothing has been welded to the original unibody.  A few little trims of some sheet metal edges is all I've done to the unibody.  The entire subframe is bolted into the EA81 suspension mounting points.  The entire thing could be removed, and the EA81 setup bolted right back in.

Edited by FerGloyale
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More pics of progress.

First heres a few shots of the finalized shock brackets.  They are a bit ugly.  Built from random drops of steel pieces around the shop, so there is some odd edges and stuff I didn't bother trying to cut/grind away to look pretty.  But they are temporary until the long travels get bought.  Just wanted to get the rear end built and driving so as to test camber/toe setup through the range of travel.  

46027244205_58ba67808f_k.jpgIMG_3505 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

32000193267_2d35e1a300_k.jpgIMG_3506 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

46027235235_c74159c816_k.jpgIMG_3508 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

And here's a teaser shot of the crossbracing mounted to the front snout of the subframe.  The big rubber bushing mount is one of the rear corner subframe mounts that was cutout to make room for the mount to the mustache bar brackets in back.  Now it is welded to the front, and canted at an angle so to resist paralellogram action with the other 4 bushings on the corners.  The plate it bolts to is connected to 3/16 wall 1x2 box tube that is connected to the EA torsion tube mounting point.  The idea here is to keep the lift blocks from having a lever action on the mounting points in the body, which is a big problem on EA81 lifts, since the blocks are in a single vertical plane (both holes in straight line).  Under cornering the blocks can go from

this... I I .... to like this  ......../  /.......  

The plate is basically tacked tot eh box tubing right now.  It will be changed and braced.  Obviously the way it is now wouldn't hold much force.  Just gettin things in place.

46027230565_e8b9034011_k.jpgIMG_3509 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Edited by FerGloyale

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So........I figured these would help.  Craiglist score.  One was supposed to be "just parts" but it seems to work too!   Capable of cutting 1" thick plate.  So 3/8th was nothing.

46953271031_c57cf42906_k.jpgIMG_3513 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

First few cut plates for the bottom of the EA side trailing arm blocks.  These plates will welded to the existing EA torsion mount blocks.  Leaving a large, flat, horizontal plate the trailing arm blocks can be set against, slid around until aligned, then welded.

46953263681_9815b0b402_k.jpgIMG_3517 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

46953261481_547e13e196_k.jpgIMG_3518 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

And then here are the finished trailing arm blocks.  Again, they aren't identical......used drops from other jobs. But they are stout as heck.  

46953266251_f39ba3f1aa_k.jpgIMG_3516 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

33077831688_7070a42e47_k.jpgIMG_3515 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

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Nice score on those spaz cutters Dan. Where's your shield cup for the torch?

Get a moisture filter for your air supply if you don't have one already.

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1 hour ago, czny said:

Nice score on those spaz cutters Dan. Where's your shield cup for the torch?

Get a moisture filter for your air supply if you don't have one already.

Torch came as is.  I got a dozen new tips with it but no gaurd or standoffs.  Meh...for what I paid, It's worth it.  Figure I'll buy a new torch assembly eventually, but for now it works way better and cheaper than the Oxy/Acetylene.

Machine has a built in regulator and drier.  Plus the air at this shop is pretty dry already.  80 gallon tank, 100's of feet of line with a drier before the last 50'

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So, test drove yesterday.  Could not get the toe correct, and it's pretty wonky over bumps.

After investigation, I am afraid I set the trailing arm mounts too close together.  I think this is causing the toe to change drastically as the suspension travels.

Measured from centerline of the arm pivot, it SHOULD be at 46.6 inches.  It ended up at 42.4 inches.

Gonna be using the Plasma cutter a bit more I guess.

 

on the upside, the added height and stiffer springs feel great.  14" clearance under the diff with a medium load.  Of course I haven't put the rear skid back on so that weighs about 45lbs. 

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Plates mounted to the body via old modified lift blocks

46192118235_5aa0e4f001_k.jpgIMG_3520 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Here's the other side, with the trailing bracket mounted.  This allows positioning of the bracket before welding to the plate above.

33230655778_05e35849ff_b.jpgIMG_3522 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Here' what I had to do to pull the brackets into place.  Now that I know that I was using a bad number to measure from (4+ inches too narrow)  I know why it was so hard to get them pulled in! lol  Also, in this shot you can see the crossbar of my built subframe.  With the diff now pushed about 4 inches further up into the body, that tube interferes with the driveline.  Had to change that, pics in the next shot.

46192104985_99b89b41a8_b.jpgIMG_3525 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Here's the subframe tube with a new cutout and bracing

47105790191_07e64eba5c_b.jpgIMG_3539 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

And here's the sliders connecting the subframe with the Trailing brackets.  Too bad these are gonna have to change again when I reposition the brackets 2" further out on each side.

46382213624_cdaa0a7fa7_b.jpgIMG_3544 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

32163927107_6afb4bed3d_b.jpgIMG_3543 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

And here's some pics of the finished crossbracing for the main subframe.  The added braces are kinda hard to see in the dark photos.

33230625018_dbc5888097_b.jpgIMG_3541 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

33230622628_8ffbbc45dc_b.jpgIMG_3542 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Here's the final height it will sit at viewed from underneath in the pit.

46192068005_51c8f5a73b_b.jpgIMG_3536 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Here's a shot of what the trailing brackets look like from the side of the rig.   These will need to change a bit, but basically haow it will be.  Gotta move these brackets outward about 2 inches each.

46192075005_8d51f38a16_b.jpgIMG_3546 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Edited by FerGloyale
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The lengthened lnk is not going to work.

Since the trailing arm swings in an arc, the link at the rear swings through more of it's range than the forward lower link.

So the lateral shift of each link can never match.  Constantly changing toe.  Pretty drastic actually.  

The car was SCArY to derive over 35~40 mph.  

DO NOT LENGTHEN JUST THE LOWER LINK.

I will be welding back in mounts for the OE short links an report back.

I do love the increased rear diff clearance and weight carrying though.

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1 hour ago, FerGloyale said:

The lengthened lnk is not going to work.

Since the trailing arm swings in an arc, the link at the rear swings through more of it's range than the forward lower link.

So the lateral shift of each link can never match.  Constantly changing toe.  Pretty drastic actually.  

The car was SCArY to derive over 35~40 mph.  

DO NOT LENGTHEN JUST THE LOWER LINK.

I will be welding back in mounts for the OE short links an report back.

I do love the increased rear diff clearance and weight carrying though.

So, the forward lower links maintain the toe-in in vertical compression travel & lengthening them causes toe-out in compression?

Makes sense that a shorter arm would cause a smaller toe change moving in a shorter arc of angle.

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1 hour ago, czny said:

So, the forward lower links maintain the toe-in in vertical compression travel & lengthening them causes toe-out in compression?

Makes sense that a shorter arm would cause a smaller toe change moving in a shorter arc of angle.

it's actually causing toe in during compression.

The sweet spot where it all lines up is about mid travel.

(estimated numbers for example purposes ahead)  At full compression, the rear arm has swung say 20 Deg. arc about 3 inches vertically.  The forward arm only swings 10 deg. and 1.5" vertically.

So 2 equal length arms that travel 2 different amounts of their arcs have the moving end shifting horizontally at different amounts.  

The Rear arm travels more "outward" when compressed.  

Conversely, when the full droop happens, the rear arm pulls the back of the knuckle inward.

All of that motion is also fighting the trailing arm front bushing trying to force the front of the arms around to accommodate the odd link travel.

I expect that going back to the short links or maybe just some shorter than they currently are links will work just fine.

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No new progress on the rear suspension just yet.  

Planning, drawing, measuring...........metal fab to resume soon.

IN the mean time, I've been cleaning 'em up.  Hated teh red forester fenders, so painted them white.  Then painted repainted lower portion of car green.  Then went back over the lower with white using a few fern leaves from the back yard as a stencil.  I'm gonna do the same on the hood but with black over green.

47930872542_62e10f0cc2_k.jpgIMG_3684 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

47930881123_afb6404116_k.jpgIMG_3683 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

47930885838_2423dca8bb_k.jpgIMG_3682 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

47930887373_b0b6e9ccc4_k.jpgIMG_3681 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

47930896916_4499723417_k.jpgIMG_3680 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Hopefully new tires and finalized rear suspension will be the next pics posted.  Front five lug after that.

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So i have finalized the rear suspension.  

48052393041_cf91a2675f_n.jpgIMG_3745 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Went back to stock length forward links.  Though I made the inner mounts alot tougher than stock, and built some "sliders" as gaurds at the front of the block.  

48052445193_a56e344c9d_n.jpgIMG_3739 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

48052495322_ab9c83b322_n.jpgIMG_3734 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Also redid sliders at the forward trailing arm link, tying into the front subframe.  And redid the rear attachment of my tank gaurd.  Need to buy more bolts and paint.

48052452058_b712fef76e_n.jpgIMG_3732 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

 

New tires.  @ front are used Wild Country, 2 rear are new hercules MT all 31x10x15

Alignment is less than 1cm toe in at level.  1/2 cm toed out at full droop.  So there is some change happening still, but less than with teh old EA setup and it's driving nicely.  If tire wear shows a problem I have "some" adjustment at the rear lateral arms.  normal ride height I've got 12" clearance.

48052488752_07bf6190dc_n.jpgIMG_3741 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

 

Also welded up a small crack above the chrome lip on the tailgate.  The hole there would let water in while and when I opened the gate it would drip out eh latch hole onto my head.  Hoping to have solved that.  The rear gate will get the fern camo treatment before the chrome lip and latch handle go back in.

48052408831_c563a5f713_n.jpgIMG_3731 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

48052453963_be7f716d23_n.jpgIMG_3730 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

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So, got to take a test run on Fathers Day.  Had a blast.  Rear suspension tracked awesome on road, held up to lots more weight than before.

Tackled some rock sections at Shotgun Creek OHV.  

Unfortunately, broke a rear CV on the left side nearly out of the gate. So most of this video I'm actually in 3wd, lol.  You can see a few times the left rear just rolling along not spinning up when the right side is.  It's welded so they both should spin together always.  

I had been driving about 100~150 miles on pavement before that with welded rear diff with both axles in.   I had always been paranoid about that, and this didn't help.  I haven't devised a good way to do a quick axle pull with the 00-09 Outback suspesnion. I'm thinking leave dummy stubs in for the street and pull the wheel bearing and hub and install axle straight through the trailing arm? Time consuming, but it's a bit less than disconnecting suspesion arms to install an axle.

  Oh well, the 03 donor this stuff came from had 280k miles so I guess that ol' axle went out with a bang.

 

Sadly, I the next set of boulders, struggling (unknowingly at the time) with 3WD, I ended up losing reverse.  Gotta open up the box and add Ivans brass spacer to the reverse Idler.  I'm about 99% sure that's what happened.  I might post those vids later.

Thanks to all that have inspired my continuing builds.  Y'all know who you are.

 

Edited by FerGloyale

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Thanks. Pulled 2 axles with bearings from the rear of an 03 at the junkyard today.

Dropping the trans out this weekend hopefully and installing axles.

We will have round two of testing weekend after next.

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Well, I've always disliked the idea of driving a welded diff on the street.  And here's why.  

So much stress on the axles, it's actually twisted the shaft....

Here's the unbroken shaft still installed.

48110967721_4b4d277b1f_h.jpgIMG_3781 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

And side by side with the 2 "new" JY axles

48110965191_89c34c0a4f_h.jpgIMG_3783 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

 

So here is my solution to driving on road with an axle pulled.  

First, removing the broken shaft.  Slide hammer isn't necessary, but since I'm at home and it was easy, I used it to pull the entire bearing, and shaft through the trailing arm.  *note, remove the ABS sensor before doing it this way If you want to keep your ABS working.  I was happy to discover this can actually be done without removing hte E-brake setup......Although it's not used in my case, for those of you out there needing to swap an axle, this is hte way to go.  No unbolting of links and shock.

48110958076_921158d9f4_h.jpgIMG_3759 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

48110956956_5cd53f287b_h.jpgIMG_3760 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Next, taking the broken axle to the vice, and removing the broken shaft.

48110994218_85f58ea1af_h.jpgIMG_3762 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

48110992268_d180b39d5c_h.jpgIMG_3763 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

48111053257_8ba96d65ec_h.jpgIMG_3764 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Then cleaned and reinstalled as a "dummy stub" on the left side.

48111015498_0c612283f6_h.jpgIMG_3776 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

And same thing for the inner cup.....much easier, just pull the circlip and slide the CV cage slides out.

48111079112_fcebf03c49_h.jpgIMG_3775 by Dans Subaru, on Flickr

Now I will not be stressing the rear axle or diff driving in town, and It's only a 10 min proceedure that requires one 14mm socket and ratchet to install the other axle when I get to trails.  

Check out my Flickr page for the rest of the axle disassembly pics.

Tomorrow, pulling trans and fixing reverse idler.

 

 

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