The infamous ej22 stumble.

[Wildem]

Lately ive been having issues with my phase 1 ej22 swapped wagon.  It seems to be worse when the engine is cold but is  sometimes still present even after the engine has come to full temp. Ive done a little research into it and from what i can see no one really has any difinitive answers as to what actually fixed it and what was just a bandaid until it came back. When accelerating i will feel a huge loss of power as if it dropped 2 cylinders, high pitch whistle, and sputtering. Now heres where it gets weird. When the car is in nuetral or park it runs perfect. This only happens in  all forward gears and reverse. I can accelerate the car very VERY slowly without causing it to happen and once i am up to speed its fine. Any normal ammount of pressure to take off from a stop light or sign will cause it to fall on its face but If i force the car to down shift (bring the rpms past 2500)  and let off the pedal until im barely putting any pressure on, the car lurches back to life and takes off like a rocket.  This problem seems to be mainly from 1000-2500 rpms.  Only code i have is for the evap canister purge ( havent changed the hoses on the intake for in-bay canister). Transmission fluid level is good and fluid doesnt smell terrible. Im pretty stumped on this.  

[FerGloyale]

Change the spark plugs.  NGK v- power is fine and cheap.  DO NOT USE BOSCH

Check that you have the PCV and IAC hoses correct, and all intake boot clamps are tight.

If problem persists, change spark plug wires (NGK) and possibly try another known good coil.

FWIW, the high pitched whine at full throttle as RPMs build is normal.  It's a result of the shape of the intake snorkus.  The accordion shape of the tube acts like an Elk Bugle, lol.  

[Wildem]

17 hours ago, FerGloyale said:

Change the spark plugs.  NGK v- power is fine and cheap.  DO NOT USE BOSCH

Check that you have the PCV and IAC hoses correct, and all intake boot clamps are tight.

If problem persists, change spark plug wires (NGK) and possibly try another known good coil.

FWIW, the high pitched whine at full throttle as RPMs build is normal.  It's a result of the shape of the intake snorkus.  The accordion shape of the tube acts like an Elk Bugle, lol.  

New plugs, new wires, new coil. Plug holes arent filling up with oil, Cleaned every plug in the bay and on the transmission with air and used dielectric on every single one. Ive tried to sea foam it But the problem just persists. It only feels as though it happens when the transmission is cold. I drove all day yesterday after it had initially done it in the morning, about 10 miles in is when it stopped and drove normal. I drove all around the state, car on and off for different ammounts of time each. Im going to take it this morning and change the fluid and filter but i am afraid to flush it at near 200k. 

[lmdew]

No need to drop the pan for a filter.  If you have the external filter change it.  Dextron III is fine.

I drain, Fill, pull the upper trans radiator cooling line.  Put 2 tubes into a gallon jug and start the car.  The trans will pump out all the old dirty fluid.  When you have about 3/4 of a gallon, shut off the car.  Fill it back up and start it again with an empty jug.  another 3/4.  Repeat until the fluid is nice and red/clean.  About 4 gallons.  Put the trans cooler line back on and properly service the fluid.

[Wildem]

1997 4eat is in pan filter. not screw on. 

[Wildem]

Ive just gotten to the shop so i will check back. in with the results

[NV Zeno]

This looks like a classic case of a restricted / dirty fuel filter.  

Just my 2 bucks

[GeneralDisorder]

Check live data for fuel trims and MAF sensor output. Should be around 3 grams/sec at idle. Fuel trims should be +/- 5% or less. Dirty MAF, dirty intake filter, or sometimes a loose airbox can cause similar symptoms. If you hadn't already done a tune up that would be the likely culprit. 

Change the fuel filter on principle. 

GD

[FerGloyale]

3 hours ago, Wildem said:

1997 4eat is in pan filter. not screw on. 

 some have a screw on in the inner drivers side fender.  In the cooler lines.

If it doesn't, don't worry about pulling the "filter" in the trans.  It's not a filter, it's pickup screen.  And they really never clog.  They have a huge surface area.

What you are describing doesn't seem trans related. anyhow.

On 3/22/2019 at 6:08 AM, Wildem said:

When accelerating i will feel a huge loss of power as if it dropped 2 cylinders, high pitch whistle, and sputtering..  

Stumbling indicates a misfire.  Either a spark or timing issue.

FWIW, you have an ECU that thinks there is a bit more power available at low rpms.  It may be that when cold it's just hesitating to give you the downshift because it thinks that what it's doing should be "enough".  Which it would be with the 2.5, but not with the -30 hp of the 2.2  I know my 2.2 swapped forester has a "sluggish" spot when cold.  However mine does not sputter.  

Again, sputtering, stumbling, is a misfire.  What brand of Spark plugs and wires did you use?

[GeneralDisorder]

I agree that misfire is most likely. But I just had a 97 in the shop that surged and sputtered due to mostly a dirty MAF. It was pulling 10% fuel before cleaning and adding 0.8% after. 

GD

[lmdew]

It's all in the data.  Data driven maintenance is best.

[mikec03]

It's tough to solve a hesitation problem without codes.  I don't disagree with anything written above.  However, if were me, I would do the following:

1. Replace the MAF with a used one.  It's probably only $25.  I have had a 90's subarus where the MAF was a problem.  It caused random stalling but not exactly like the OP's.

2.  Replace the upstream O2 sensor.  It's about $60 for a new bosch one.  Although, I never seemed to have a problem with the 90's, I did have a problem with an 2002 that the O2 sensor was the cause.  Besides, at 200K,  it should be replaced on general principles. 

[Wildem]

Fuel filter is new, stft is kindof all over the board at idle, as low as 0 to -7.0 but for the most part hangs around-3/-5. 

Using vpower plugs, duralast wires. 

I cleaned the MAF it is reading .5lb/min 

 

[FerGloyale]

1 hour ago, Wildem said:

Fuel filter is new, stft is kindof all over the board at idle, as low as 0 to -7.0 but for the most part hangs around-3/-5. 

Using vpower plugs, duralast wires. [color/]

I cleaned the MAF it is reading .5lb/min 

 

Garbage

 

[Wildem]

1 hour ago, FerGloyale said:

Garbage

 

Swapped the maf out for a spare i had on the shed and now its only +/- .08

 

On 3/23/2019 at 4:32 PM, GeneralDisorder said:

I agree that misfire is most likely. But I just had a 97 in the shop that surged and sputtered due to mostly a dirty MAF. It was pulling 10% fuel before cleaning and adding 0.8% after. 

GD

Wasnt a dirty maf but a bad one.

[Wildem]

Ill report back in a few days to let you guys know if it actually fixed it 

[heartless]

6 hours ago, Wildem said:

Fuel filter is new, stft is kindof all over the board at idle, as low as 0 to -7.0 but for the most part hangs around-3/-5. 

Using vpower plugs, duralast wires. 

I cleaned the MAF it is reading .5lb/min 

 

those wires are going to be about 99% of your issue. They are JUNK. This has been discussed MANY times over the years.

They might be fine for a ford, chevy or dodge, but NEVER for a Subaru.

Get them off the car and replace with either genuine Subaru wires, or the appropriate NGK brand wires.

[FerGloyale]

On 3/24/2019 at 1:38 PM, Wildem said:

Swapped the maf out for a spare i had on the shed and now its only +/- .08

 

Wasnt a dirty maf but a bad one.

 

yeah i was talking about the duralast wires.  garbage

[Wildem]

6 hours ago, FerGloyale said:

 

yeah i was talking about the duralast wires.  garbage

I havent had any issues since swapping the MAF, this doesnt really convince me as its only been 2 days but its off to a good start,better than anything else ive tried. I still havent had so much as a hiccup from the car.The wires were put on after the problem had already been happening for a while, like i said i was chasing this issue with no pending or stored codes .

[jonathan909]

On 3/23/2019 at 10:46 AM, GeneralDisorder said:

Check live data for fuel trims and MAF sensor output. Should be around 3 grams/sec at idle. Fuel trims should be +/- 5% or less. Dirty MAF, dirty intake filter, or sometimes a loose airbox can cause similar symptoms. If you hadn't already done a tune up that would be the likely culprit.

This is probably suitable for a fresh thread, but what is the best/most cost-effective tool for getting live data?  A few years ago I got FreeSSM for windoze (which didn't look like it was being actively maintained) and went through the whole thing finding a USB-OBDII cable that it'd work with.  I don't carry a tracking device, so the "smartphone"/bluetooth dongle combo doesn't really work for me.  Are these the only choices, or is there something better our there?

[GeneralDisorder]

Generic OBD-II live data from any capable scan tool is generally sufficient. There really isn't much except very spotty unverified SSM support through EVOScan from 95 to 2005. For ~2005+ there is RomRaider which generally can be setup for most applications with some effort. 

But you really don't need much more than the generic live data. 

Much more important is being able to interpret the data. Knowing what is normal and how changes in sensor data interact with the fuel system. It's all well and good to see a MAF sensor grams per second or a MAP sensor psi / inches of mercury but if you don't know what is normal in general AND what is normal for that engine family - it's just a bunch of useless numbers. 

Surprisingly small changes in the data from these sensors will wreak havoc with fuel trims, and driveability. 

And even that's not enough. It is not enough to know what is normal watching some live data. You have to know under what conditions the sensors are important. You really need a working knowledge of the fuel system feedback loop and how this data is used and what sensors are important under what conditions.

By the time you figure it out - you can pretty much design, build, and tune your own fuel injection system. The knowledge and experience is hard won. 

GD

Edited March 30, 2019 by GeneralDisorder

[jonathan909]

Understood - need to develop a feel for it as well as the understanding of system.

To the original question, though, what counts for "any capable scan tool" in the free/cheap realm?

[GeneralDisorder]

These are pretty good for cheap:

https://www.amazon.com/Creader-Automotive-Scanners-Functions-Diagnostic/dp/B06ZYTDKP3/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=launch+creader&qid=1554008940&s=gateway&sr=8-3

GD

[Wildem]

Sorry ive been gone so long guys. BUT i did find my problem. Leaking moonroof. It would fill up the floor and wash the computer. Relocated tothe glovebox and fixed the leak. No more issues!!! Always keep in mind the computer sits on the floor if you notice any moisture!!!