Distributor side timing belt snapped again

[montermahan]

Luckily this is on a trike, 30 minutes to get taken apart.  First belt was a NAPA kit,  Snapped after about 5 thousand miles,  I ordered a kit from EBay and it lasted 21,ooo miles.  First one I only tightened by the spring tension,  Second, spring tension and probably 20 lbs. pressure on pulley.  I do a lot of riding and luckily, both times it happened 10 miles from home, but I take a lot of 1,000 mile trips and would hate to be farther from home than I would like to use a tow strap.  I had no luck finding  an OEM in a hurry and this one I ordered this time was from RockAuto, said to be AC DELCO parts?  I know others have used non OEM belts, but don't know if they had any better luck than me?  I carry a spare   belt belt and belt and tools, but would still be a pain to change it on the road.

Edited July 27, 2019 by montermahan

[lrgvanman]

Bummer for that and I had that happen as well quite some time ago with my '87 GL ea82. I have often wondered if my expedited measure of not changing the tensioner and pulleys may have contributed to early failure as I followed the procedure otherwise. Just glad it didn't happen in Nowhereville either time. My present Subie is a dinosaur '84 GL wagon with the gear driven ea81. Regressed to seemingly more reliability, so far. BTW, I like the air cleaner on your trike!

Edited July 27, 2019 by lrgvanman

[DaveT]

I have only used oem or napa belts.  

The 3 idler bearings are a disaster waiting to happen after 50k miles, so change the accordingly. 

Belt tension is about 15 ft lbs torque on the cam pulley, when in the position with that pulley's mark aligned with the mark on th back cover.

[DaveT]

I have been running without the too covers for years now, not sure if it's my imagination,  but they seem to last longer.  Also, I did catch a failing bearing noise from an idler a whole lot earlier a while back.

[montermahan]

17 minutes ago, lrgvanman said:

Bummer for that and I had that happen as well quite some time ago with my '87 GL ea82. I have often wondered if my expedited measure of not changing the tensioner and pulleys may have contributed to early failure as I followed the procedure otherwise. Just

10 minutes ago, DaveT said:

I have only used oem or napa belts.  

The 3 idler bearings are a disaster waiting to happen after 50k miles, so change the accordingly. 

Belt tension is about 15 ft lbs torque on the cam pulley, when in the position with that pulley's mark aligned with the mark on th back cover.

I will try the 15 LB. torque this time,  New belt should be in mail today.  Thanks for the info.

 

 

 

glad it didn't happen in Nowhereville either time. My present Subie is a dinosaur '84 GL wagon with the gear driven ea81. Regressed to seemingly more reliability, so far. BTW, I like the air cleaner on your trike!

Thanks for the come back.  If this happens to me when I'm farther from home, I might consider swapping to the EA81.

[montermahan]

12 minutes ago, DaveT said:

I have been running without the too covers for years now, not sure if it's my imagination,  but they seem to last longer.  Also, I did catch a failing bearing noise from an idler a whole lot earlier a while back.

I do quite a bit of riding on gravel roads and would be scared of a rock getting in there and breaking belt also.

[montermahan]

I'm on to something, not sure what.  getting ready to put new belts on, I turned camshaft on side opposite distributor by the 10mm bolt on pulley and it turned fairly easy.  turning one on distributor side, it turned a little and got tight enough I was afraid I was going to twist off bolt.  I removed dist. and still tight.  removed valve cover and saw nothing wrong, turning cam I would notice it got tight on one of the intake lifters.  I pulled head and removed valve springs and I think the valve stems are running dry.  About a thousand miles ago I thought I had a slightly stuck valve, after 20 miles it cleared up.  I have stem seals on all valves and they are the type that slip over the guide and fit tight over the stem with a little spring on them.  These are remanufactured heads from J&C Enterprises.  Upon putting them on, at first, I would start it up and run fine, after a minute it would start missing a little and compression would be low like a valve was warping a little..  rather than sending them back,  I purchased all new valves and all was good, for about 10,000 miles, now this.  The guides had been knurled.  I'm wondering if my new valves were a little tighter than what they had fitted, there seams to be very little play and secondly, should all the valves have seals on them, seam's like there would be no lubrication other than what was put on them upon installation.  I will take the head to a machine shop and see what they think,  maybe they will need reamed out a little.  Any one have any thoughts about what I found?

[DaveT]

Yeah, with the engine in back, and gravel, you probably need the covers.

 

The cams get pretty tight feeling just pressing the valves open, I would not turn one by the 10mm hex head bolts, too close to the yield stenth of them.

 

I made a too for turning the cams.  Piece of bar stock with 2 bolts tapped and screwed through so that the ends stick into 2 of those 4 holes in the outer edge of the cam pulley.   Similar thing to apply torque with a torque wrench,  but with a hole in the center for the drive.

[montermahan]

Thanks DaveT.  I will build tool like you mentioned so I can put 15 lbs torque to belts.  But I had a binding goin on, really hard to turn distributor side cam when lobe coming up in an intake valve, other side cam turns fairly easy, has to be valve stems, verry little if any clearance in stems.     every thing else looks new.

[Steptoe]

I had a weird miss I could not detect by comp test after All Head Service in sMelbourne gave my EA82T heads the full treatment. After swapping injectors between pots, fitting serviced and tested injectors, new plugs,leads,rotor and cap, weird miss still there....

Discussion with AHS suggested the springs were within spec and to replace lash adjusters. This only made miss more pronounced. I then replaced full set of factory valve springs, and as fitted them to heads on block noticed how bleeding soft the "within specification" springs were.

Problem resolved.

Miss was not on start up, but as soon as received blip would start, then settle away, drive it like this for 20,000 km until springs went in. Caused trouble for propane system backfiring.

 

[Steptoe]

I made cam turn tool from another cam wheel off EA82 butted butt to butt. Two or four M6 bolts nutted in place for bolts to lock into engines cam wheel and maybe short M12 bolt and nuts tightened in centre hole to use socket on

[Steptoe]

Ensure your torque wrench will work both ways, mine only works right hand thread tightening

[montermahan]

15 hours ago, Steptoe said:

I had a weird miss I could not detect by comp test after All Head Service in sMelbourne gave my EA82T heads the full treatment. After swapping injectors between pots, fitting serviced and tested injectors, new plugs,leads,rotor and cap, weird miss still there....

Discussion with AHS suggested the springs were within spec and to replace lash adjusters. This only made miss more pronounced. I then replaced full set of factory valve springs, and as fitted them to heads on block noticed how bleeding soft the "within specification" springs were.

Problem resolved.

Miss was not on start up, but as soon as received blip would start, then settle away, drive it like this for 20,000 km until springs went in. Caused trouble for propane system backfiring.

 

My miss seamed to be valves that were ground and seating getting warm and warping a little bit.  I put in new valves and the problem went away, till now,   I believe the stems are to tight and dragging.  I don't see how they can receive any lubrication with those stem seals.  I run a little MMO in the fuel.  I will take it to a engine building machine shop Monday and see what they think.  I bet they will want to ream the guides a little.

[DaveT]

The valves should slide freely.   I have never had or heard of a lubrication  problem due to the seals.

[ferp420]

ditch the belt covers carry extra belts its a 2 or 3 min job with the covers off the only time i ever had a issue throwing the belts was when it was burried in the mud up the cams

also

theres a pully that has a lip on it the oil pump if i remeber and sometimes that lip goes away and your belt will fall off on a regular baisis if you replace that pully with a new one that has the lip still the belt wont fall off anymore it would only affect the distibutor side as thats the side that has the oil pump

those pullies are getting hard to find these days but you might be able to fabricate something

[ferp420]

before i figured out the pully was the issue i got to the point i could put the belt back on with no tools in the middle of the night in the mud in the dark in frezing temps in shorts and a tee shirt in the middle of the desert

[idosubaru]

As he said drivers side turns the oil pump and wraps around more pulleys.  Were you turning the cam with or without the belt installed?

The cam lobes are compressing the valve springs and very tight to turn.  It is hard to know just by reading this if what you’re describing is a problem or not.  But like Dave said they’re to tight to turn to use the 10mm cam sprocket bolts. They can strip if used to turn the cam. 

These heads are simple and rarely have valve issues.  If it ends up being the valve/head I’d be tempted to install a used head rather than one that needs multiple trips to the machine shop. I’d wonder if the first shop/rebuild caused the issue.  

[czny]

1 hour ago, idosubaru said:

The cam lobes are compressing the valve springs and very tight to turn.  It is hard to know just by reading this if what you’re describing is a problem or not.  But like Dave said they’re to tight to turn to use the 10mm cam sprocket bolts. They can strip if used to turn the cam. 

These heads are simple and rarely have valve issues.  If it ends up being the valve/head I’d be tempted to install a used head rather than one that needs multiple trips to the machine shop. I’d wonder if the first shop/rebuild caused the issue.  

IF the valve stem heights are too high hydraulic lifters won't have any travel left to cushion cam profile. This could lead to valves not seating 100% of the time & warping the valve heads.

https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/131629-ea82-valve-train-question/?tab=comments#comment-1121659

Have machine shop double check your valve stem heights to be sure. Machine shop that did my work never had to replace or ream guides but did overlook valve stem heights. See attachments for specs.

Edited July 29, 2019 by czny

[Numbchux]

Yea, I never had good luck with EA82 timing belts. I can't count on both hands the number of times I had one break (almost always the LH one, too. You can drive the the RH one broken....) on all the EA82s I ever owned. That why I hate them so much to this day (haven't owned one in more than 10 years...). Didn't seem to matter what parts I used, how it was installed, or anything.

I just ran without covers and carried the necessary tools and spares, EVERYWHERE. I actually happened to glance at the clock the last time I changed one on the side of the road, and it was like 18 minutes, including putting coveralls on.

[idosubaru]

That’s interesting in valves - how common is that and can he check that without pulling the head?  Why would that height vary?

OP - grease the pulleys with a needle fitting on a grease gun or replace the pulleys every 30k or 50k.  All that’s been said in this thread is “belt break, belt replace, order belt...belt”....the pulleys lack grease, run hot and seize.

I can’t see the car and wasn’t there for the work but I’ve seen countless EA/ER belts and pulleys and tensioners with issues and zero valve issues. I’d at least first rule out the very common issue   

EA82 belts aren’t forgiving and are a weak point with abysmal excuses for tensioning but replace or grease pulley bearings, don’t get fluids on the belt, use good belts replaced every 50k, and they’re reliable.

It seems they weren’t regularly blowing belts off the show room floor under warranty so frequent breakage should point to a causative issue.  having driven XT(6)s as daily drivers for a quarter century this has been my experience. 

[czny]

11 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

That’s interesting in valves - how common is that and can he check that without pulling the head?  Why would that height vary?

 

Valve height must be checked whenever a valve grind is done. That margin of stem height ensures lifters are operating within internal limits.

Sink the valves too deep & you must replace valve seats. Grind too much off the faces & then must replace the valves.

If cams were reground to smaller base circle then the stem heights could be more to compensate.

Theoretically, by rocker ratio times difference in base circles radii - stock to reground.

Probably could be checked in the car with a straightedge & calipers as long as you already knew dimension from gasket surface to spring pockets.

Just do it right the first time.

YMMV.

 

[Numbchux]

3 hours ago, idosubaru said:

That’s interesting in valves - how common is that and can he check that without pulling the head?  Why would that height vary?

OP - grease the pulleys with a needle fitting on a grease gun or replace the pulleys every 30k or 50k.  All that’s been said in this thread is “belt break, belt replace, order belt...belt”....the pulleys lack grease, run hot and seize.

I can’t see the car and wasn’t there for the work but I’ve seen countless EA/ER belts and pulleys and tensioners with issues and zero valve issues. I’d at least first rule out the very common issue   

EA82 belts aren’t forgiving and are a weak point with abysmal excuses for tensioning but replace or grease pulley bearings, don’t get fluids on the belt, use good belts replaced every 50k, and they’re reliable.

It seems they weren’t regularly blowing belts off the show room floor under warranty so frequent breakage should point to a causative issue.  having driven XT(6)s as daily drivers for a quarter century this has been my experience. 

I always inspected and carried spare pullies as well, but I saw plenty of belt failures without pulley failure.

 

I completely blame the tensioner. I'm sure I've driven 50-70k miles on the 2 XT6s I've owned, and never even seen the timing components on either one. As you know (others might not), they share a very similar timing system, but with hydraulic tensioners.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Numbchux

[carfreak85]

Can you use XT6 tensioners on an EA82?

[idosubaru]

1 minute ago, Numbchux said:

I always inspected and carried spare pullies as well, but I saw plenty of belt failures without pulley failure.

What if pulley "failure" is not the issue but bearing grease is?  For sure the EA82 seems less robust and i'm all for early replacement. Seems they weren't failing under warranty so my opinion is it's also causative with maybe some recourse options.  Pulley failure may not be the only concern, I've never seen an EA82 or XT6 with what were obviously replaced pulleys - they all appear to have original pulleys and lack grease which work and spin just fine but definitely are nothing close to new, tightly greased pulleys. If they generate more heat that may quicken the degradation of belts (particularly aftermarket or old belts?).  That's speculative, i've never hit them with a temp gun.  I almost always installed complete kits - new belts, pulleys, tensioners at the same time and regrease XT6 pulleys and have never seen failures.   the people replacing multiple belts back to back - i don't see them installing new bearings each time. one recent guy was complaining about 3 broken belts back to back and eventually says he installs used ones laying around the garage...typical for us cheap old gen subaru owners, but maybe there's more than just "bad belt design" going on....which seems the likely starting point if they weren't doing this 25 years ago under warranty. 

Just now, carfreak85 said:

Can you use XT6 tensioners on an EA82?

Not without custom work.  The drivers side is completely different set up and would require custom fitment.  Passengers side is very similar but not substantially different nor the most problematic one. 

[el_freddo]

If a bearing fails in an idler or a tensioner the belt tends to melt and make a huge mess rather than freying and snapping. 

Cleaning the melted belt from the teeth of the oil pump, crank and cam wheels takes ages, not “the usual” 30 mins on the side of the road.

Cheers 

Bennie