2003 Legacy Outback: Radiator blown & won't start – keep it or kill it?

[Theophilus]

Trying to decide what to do here, so I'd appreciate any input people have.

I was moving from Florida to New York last week in my 2003 Subaru Legacy Outback.  The car was doing fine and almost made it, but one final long hill outside of Scranton PA was just too much.  The car suddenly lost all power and started putting out billows of steam/smoke from the engine compartment.  We pulled over to the side of the highway right away.  The temperature gauge only went into the red zone AFTER we pulled over and stopped.

When I opened the hood, I saw that a crack had developed along the top edge of the radiator.  Large amounts of coolant had shot out all over the hot engine (producing the smoke).  When I try to start the engine now, the starter spins but nothing catches.  Hopefully it's just that the sudden high heat destroyed the spark plugs and they need to be replaced.  But it might be something more serious.

So what should I do?  I'm in Ithaca now and the car is parked at a repair place in Scranton.  Is it worth investing $500 or more to tow the car 150 miles, replace the radiator, replace the spark plugs, and hope that it runs again?  Or should I cut my losses and sell it to a junkyard in Scranton for $250?  My heart says "keep it" but my head says "kill it."  What do you think?

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

probably at least pull the timing covers. If it isn't starting due to slipped timing, you might get lucky, re-time it. If it starts (don't run it long) with no bad sounds,  it could be worth the radiator. If the timing is correct, issues are likely more severe (stuck valve? thrown rod?...?)  and maybe scrapping it is the best call?

 

hope others respond

[FerGloyale]

You broke a timing belt.  That's why it sounds like starter is spinning, motor has no compression now the valves are all bent.

You need to replace the valves or hte entire heads with new ones.

Probably not worth fixing I guess since it's an east coast car.  If it's got any rust, just junk it and find a new one.

[1997reduxe]

Well a Florida car is not a NY one rustwise of course. It’s too bad you don’t have AAA because it’s such a good deal if you have the premium level they’ll tow it at least here in Texas 200 miles once a year for free, and three other standard tows as well.

that said, I looked at Ithaca on Craigslist, there’s a lot of newer than yours Subes there for cheap, but of course lots of rust and potential other issues. But engines too. The one thing I like to keep in mind is I already know the status of a car I’ve maintained.

its too bad you’re not in Texas there’s used subes aplenty and zero rust. As an old pa native, Scranton hills are hell.

good luck.

[idosubaru]

Ideally diagnose and know what decision you're making.  Any replacement vehicle in NY will be a current, or future, rust bucket unless you're in the market for a nearly new vehicle. 

1. don't turn the engine over any more
2. read the engine codes if you have an OBD scanner - cam/crank codes would suggest timing belt issue
3. pull the one side timing cover - it's only 3 10mm bolts and takes a few minutes.  Easy. 
Once removed - check to see if the belt is completely broken or just loose.

If you can figure out the no start condition then replace the radiator and you should be good to go. 

 

[Theophilus]

Thanks for all the good, solid input on this question!  It's very helpful.

1997reduxe is correct about it being a Florida car.  It's never had any rust issues at all.  And, yes, I feel the same way about knowing the status of a car I've maintained.  The car is 150 miles away, in Scranton, but I might still be able to get AAA to cover the first 100 miles of the towing.  If I can just get the car into my own driveway, I've got some things to investigate now.  And I found a used radiator at an online parts place for $125.

Scranton hills really are hell.  In retrospect, I wish we'd just turned on the emergency blinkers and done 40 mph in the right lane, like all those big rigs were doing.

[idosubaru]

1 minute ago, Theophilus said:

And I found a used radiator at an online parts place for $125.

I've bought them from advance auto parts for $60.  They're $100 and I use $40 off online coupon.  

$48 with free shipping on ebay: 

https://www.ebay.com/p/Direct-Fit-Complete-Aluminum-Radiator-100-Leak-Tested-Rad-for-2-5l/2107190739?iid=191597908667&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=191597908667&targetid=596465947388&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9009439&poi=&campaignid=1689407486&mkgroupid=74365778148&rlsatarget=pla-596465947388&abcId=1140476&merchantid=6319874&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_ei91Nzr4wIVBp-fCh1yAQ9QEAQYAyABEgKmE_D_BwE

[idosubaru]

I'd diagnose the no-start and timing belt first though before putting money into a radiator you won't need. 

if the valves are bent you can buy used heads for $100-$200 and swap them out and be back on the road relatively inexpensively as well.  

resurface the heads, new subaru headgaskets, new Subaru timing belt and lower cogged pulley and you're good for another 100k for $200 in new maintenance parts. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by idosubaru

[john in KY]

What are the odds the radiator and the timing belt both fail simultaneously.

[1 Lucky Texan]

2 hours ago, john in KY said:

What are the odds the radiator and the timing belt both fail simultaneously.

 

Maybe nothing. maybe the plugs.coil are still wet or ??? and it doesn't start?

just trying to figure out the current no-start. How does a blown radiator prevent starting?

[idosubaru]

4 hours ago, john in KY said:

What are the odds the radiator and the timing belt both fail simultaneously.

Really low.  If a pulley started to fail the timing belt will glaze over, over heat and eventually start to shred into threads.  Maybe if it was doing that the water pump wasn't turning at full speed, leading to overheating.  Car pulls over and the start up attempt blew the belt.  Seems unlikely to happen in practice....but...maybe?

[Theophilus]

Updates:

• I got AAA to tow the car to Ithaca.  (They weren't very happy about it, but they did it.)
• I took the cover off to check the timing belt.  It looked absolutely pristine.  No signs of oil or dirt or wear at all.
• I bought and installed the cheap radiator that Idosubaru found on eBay.  There was less than 2 quarts of coolant left in the system when I drained it.
• I also installed new spark plugs, because one person suggested that the sudden high heat in the engine might have destroyed a plug.

Outcome: The car turns over and tries to start but doesn't start.  There's about half a tank of gas, the oil is midway between the full and low marks, and the new radiator is now full of water.  Any suggestions?

My first thought is to check the air filter, because maybe the exploding radiator soaked the paper filter and air isn't reaching the cylinder.  My other thought is to check the fuel pump, to be sure gas is getting to the cylinder.  If both of those are fine, then maybe the coolant explosion did something to the ignition coil or the alternator?  Any suggestions welcome and appreciated!

[idosubaru]

Did you check the timing marks?

Pull the fuel line and check for gas. Just unscrew the hose and turn the key to ON, but not start.  Fuel pump should cycle and flow fuel for 2 seconds.  Takes 1 minute to do that. Simple.  

If there is no or limited fuel the fuel pump cap tabs cracked and the oring pushed out.  Replace the cap with a used one and oring with a viton one. I don’t think you can buy the caps anymore  Baja caps with internal filters were available for a short time but I don’t think they still are?

or I guess the fuel pump could be bad.  Aftermarket pumps are low grade enough I’d rather just replace a cap if it’s cracked and take my chances on an old Subaru  pump over new aftermarket pump  

00-04 models are prone to this cap issue  

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

if it fires with a squirt of ether-start, definitely check for the cap/o-ring problem as mentioned. You can still get the caps with a filter (toss the filter) and get a 928 metric o-ring. last I looked, Dorman had a kit for this on Amazon but, no idea of quality.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KG7K8GB/?coliid=I3K5K95AVIBSKV&colid=IDEFQ97CY9SH&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

 

scan for pending codes?

 

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by 1 Lucky Texan

[Theophilus]

Haven't checked the timing marks (because I don't know what that means) but I'll look into it.  I'll also definitely check the things you mentioned about the fuel line.

The thing is, whatever is causing the starting issue happened right when the radiator exploded and sent a gallon of coolant over the engine.  So I'm skeptical that the fuel pump is involved (because it's not located in the engine compartment), and I'm skeptical about the timing belt (because it seemed clean and dry when I looked at it).  It seems like this has to be something that happens when a lot of liquid with a high boiling point gets sprayed over an engine.

Could a cup of coolant in the alternator be causing a short?  It's been cool and rainy here in Ithaca, so I wouldn't be surprised if I still have some antifreeze in there that hasn't evaporated.  Maybe I should just put the car in a dry place with a box fan and blow a lot of air through the engine compartment?  I've also thought that maybe I should try a jump start, in case the battery got depleted by a short.

[heartless]

first off, start by downloading the service manual for you car from here...

http://jdmfsm.info/Auto/Japan/Subaru/

the timing marks being referred to are located on the two cam pulleys and the toothed crank pulley (actually on the backer plate of this one) - you can find more info in the service manual about this.

[Theophilus]

Progress!

Here's what I've done:

• replaced and refilled the radiator,
• replaced all the spark plugs,
• replaced both fan belts (which were actually the original equipment from 2003),
• refilled the oil,
• checked the timing belt (which seemed fine),
• checked the air filter (which was dry and unclogged),
• checked the fuel pump (which was working fine), and
• checked all the fuses (none were blown).

Then I gave it a 3-second burst of starter fluid at the air intake and I also attached a portable jump-start device, just in case the battery wasn't giving it enough power.  And... it started!  But it put out a huge cloud of white smoke, it was loud, there was a smell of gas in the exhaust, and it would only keep running if I kept giving it a lot of gas and revving it pretty high.  It didn't give any CEL during the few minutes I had it running, but it died as soon as I took my foot off the accelerator. 

So where are we now?  Is this a problem with the fuel/air mixture?

Two other pieces of the puzzle that I haven't mentioned before:

• I replaced both O2 sensors before I started out from Florida.  Could one of them have suddenly gone bad?
• A more detailed report from the driver (my wife): The car was driving fine until (on that long hill outside Scranton) the AC stopped working and then, a few minutes later, the engine lost power and died.  But she didn't notice the clouds of steam from the leaking radiator until she was stopped at the side of the road.  So it's possible that the cracked radiator would have killed it later on and that this is just something unrelated that happened to kill it first.

Not sure what to try now, so suggestions would be welcome!

[1 Lucky Texan]

it was loud? how?

scan for pending codes

try starting with the pedal held to the floor, that signals the ECU to cut fuel in case of a 'flooded' engine.

check the radiator for lost coolant. don't trust the overflow to reflect coolant level, but keep it filled to it's normal line and note any changes in its amount more than +/- a few ounces.

[Theophilus]

And the verdict appears to be... KILL IT.

I was able to replace the radiator, but all those other changes didn't solve the starting problem.  I can only get it started with a lot of effort (and starting fluid) and it only keeps running if I'm giving it gas.  It dies if it gets below 2,000 RPM.  I did replace the fuel filter and that seemed to help, but it wasn't enough.  And I don't have any way to scan for pending codes.  But thanks for all the suggestions!

I'll check tomorrow morning in case anyone has any new ideas overnight, but otherwise the Subaru goes to a junkyard tomorrow.

[brus brother]

you are working blind

get a cheap code scanner

you can get a scanner like this on ebay LINK for about $10

this should tell you enough to help you decide

you'd kick yourself if it was something simple and you junked the car

[1 Lucky Texan]

I wonder if the hose to/from the IACV is loose? that will kill the ability to idle.

 

skipped cam/crank timing 'might' behave that way....

Edited August 21, 2019 by 1 Lucky Texan

[el_freddo]

I too was thinking IACV issue. One that is stuck open will make it hard to start too. 

I wouldn’t junk it just yet. But that’s me... 

Cheers 

Bennie

[Theophilus]

Several people I've talked to have been thinking along the same lines.

Here's the thinking:

• It's too much of a coincidence to have the starting problem and the radiator explosion at the same time.  They must be connected.
• It seems most likely that the radiator crack was what caused the starting problem, but the car didn't overheat until AFTER it lost power and went to the side of the road.  So, if it wasn't the heat that messed things up, it must have been the coolant.
• The crack was at the top middle of the radiator, between the cap and the air intake.  But there was no coolant at all in the air intake.  The car was going 60 mph and about a gallon of hot coolant was blown straight back over the throttle body.
• What could a gallon of hot water and antifreeze do to a throttle body?  This was very old antifreeze, so it would have been electrically conductive.  Maybe it caused a short?  But wouldn't that have blown a fuse or generated a CEL?  Maybe I should remove the whole throttle body and clean it? 

My IACV doesn't have a hose attached to it.  Just an electrical connector (which seemed clean and dry).  I pulled the valve and it was totally black and gummy, but I don't know how to test whether it still works.

[uniberp1]

1 minute ago, Theophilus said:

Several people I've talked to have been thinking along the same lines.

Here's the thinking:

• It's too much of a coincidence to have the starting problem and the radiator explosion at the same time.  They must be connected.
• It seems most likely that the radiator crack was what caused the starting problem, but the car didn't overheat until AFTER it lost power and went to the side of the road.  So, if it wasn't the heat that messed things up, it must have been the coolant.
• The crack was at the top middle of the radiator, between the cap and the air intake.  But there was no coolant at all in the air intake.  The car was going 60 mph and about a gallon of hot coolant was blown straight back over the throttle body.
• What could a gallon of hot water and antifreeze do to a throttle body?  This was very old antifreeze, so it would have been electrically conductive.  Maybe it caused a short?  But wouldn't that have blown a fuse or generated a CEL?  Maybe I should remove the whole throttle body and clean it? 

My IACV doesn't have a hose attached to it.  Just an electrical connector (which seemed clean and dry).  I pulled the valve and it was totally black and gummy, but I don't know how to test whether it still works.

Maybe the boiling water saturated the plug wires.  Plugwires are kinda critical . You gotta use special ones: NGK or OEM.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/subaru,2003,outback,2.5l+h4,1418161,ignition,spark+plug+wire+set,7224

 

 

 

[el_freddo]

Black and gummy = dirty. I hope you cleaned it before replacing it. 

I doubt the coolant over engine has anything to do with it. 

How badly over heated was it? Engine gauge get a little hot or engine stop because it got too hot? 

Check the timing belt hasn’t skipped several teeth on one of the cams or the crank (both cams line up but crank doesn’t). 

Cheers 

Bennie