2000 Forester 4EAT issues

[Silverbullet555]

Wife's daily drive is a Forester L with a 4EAT transmission. Currently has 200K miles on it and it's been a good car. 

I thought this was an engine issue, but I am thinking it is actually transmission. Even though this car has little value, the plan is to give it to our son in a few years so fixing it will happen. I'd prefer to not have a shop fix it, but I might have to pony up for it.

I did the secret handshake and I got 2 blinks per second indicating there are no transmission codes.

I put the FWD fuse in and the FWD light came on. However, driving it around it still made the same noises. It felt different at first, but when I pulled the fuse out it felt no different.

Symptoms:
Observed: About 1 mile from home, car will attempt to stall when coming to stop or slowing for a turn.
At idle, the engine seems like it is under a slight load, more than normal. The idle seems strained at that point. Put it into neutral and that goes away.
Also, when still cold, the RPMs will jump when shifting from 2 to 3 indicating some slippage or delayed engagement. That goes away quickly as it warms up
.
Feel: The transmission and car feels bound up. I'm now getting some noise on turns and acceleration. I could swear it is a right rear noise when turning right. Like a CV joint. It gets better when car warms up. Yesterday I noticed an almost clunky noise from left front under harder acceleration. In the snow, around the culdesac, under acceleration it pushes (understears) like a bulldozer. Let off the gas and the push goes away.

I'm leaning towards a bad solenoid in the transmission, but the codes didn't give me anything. Could a solenoid be bad even if not getting a code?

I guess the only solenoid I can change is the duty C solenoid and it would require dropping the tail assembly. It would suck.

Anything else I should be looking at? Torque converter?

Line pressure solenoid?

 

[lmdew]

Have you changed the trans fluid?

Drain and fill 3 times with short drives in between or I pull the radiator trans coolant line and let the old fluid pump out.  Many post on changing the fluid.

Long post on fixing Delayed trans shifts.  The TransX additive has been used by many.

When my 2002 Impreza Outback trans was acting up, a change to Amsoil trans fluid helped significantly.

Good visual inspection of the half shafts and drive shaft u joints.  Drive in tight circles on dry pavement, is the dragging noticed?

[Silverbullet555]

I have not changed the trans fluid since the issue began. It's on the list of things to do early on.

 

Working to make room in the garage knowing it will be on stands for a bit.

 

Thanks.

 

[CNY_Dave]

On 12/4/2019 at 9:33 AM, Silverbullet555 said:

I have not changed the trans fluid since the issue began. It's on the list of things to do early on.

 

Working to make room in the garage knowing it will be on stands for a bit.

 

Thanks.

 

A hand-pump vacuum oil changer can make the 3 drain-and-fills a lot easier.

[lmdew]

Easy to drain the pan.  No need to remove it.

Then fill the trans.

Remove the upper trans line from the radiator.  Put a plastic hose about 2' long onto the radiator fitting.

Put the hose in a gallon jug.

Start the car, the old fluid will pump out.  When you have about 3/4 of a gallon turn off the car.

Empty the jug and fill the tans with new fluid.  

Repeat until the fluid is clean.

Put the hose back on and fill the trans to the proper level.

 

[Rampage]

On 12/3/2019 at 11:31 PM, Silverbullet555 said:

Observed: About 1 mile from home, car will attempt to stall when coming to stop or slowing for a turn.

That sounds like the torque converter is not coming out of lockup the way it should when slowing down or putting the brake on. When driving and the tranny shifts into 4th gear and the car goes above a certain speed the lockup solenoid puts the torque converter into lockup (like a direct coupling). If it does not release when it should it will bog down the engine. Putting it into neutral shows that.

lmdew has a good idea about using TransX. Our 97 was having a delayed shift into reverse and higher shift points going up through the gears. TransX fixed it.

[Silverbullet555]

On 12/5/2019 at 7:28 PM, Rampage said:

That sounds like the torque converter is not coming out of lockup the way it should when slowing down or putting the brake on. When driving and the tranny shifts into 4th gear and the car goes above a certain speed the lockup solenoid puts the torque converter into lockup (like a direct coupling). If it does not release when it should it will bog down the engine. Putting it into neutral shows that.

lmdew has a good idea about using TransX. Our 97 was having a delayed shift into reverse and higher shift points going up through the gears. TransX fixed it.

Thank you for that insight. Perhaps it doesn't consistently do it because sometimes it doesn't get into 4th gear and lock up. I'll test that theory.

On 12/5/2019 at 7:21 PM, lmdew said:

Easy to drain the pan.  No need to remove it.

Then fill the trans.

Remove the upper trans line from the radiator.  Put a plastic hose about 2' long onto the radiator fitting.

Put the hose in a gallon jug.

Start the car, the old fluid will pump out.  When you have about 3/4 of a gallon turn off the car.

Empty the jug and fill the tans with new fluid.  

Repeat until the fluid is clean.

Put the hose back on and fill the trans to the proper level.

 

I did a drain and refill. doing a flush through is on the tap for this weekend. 

On 12/5/2019 at 4:44 PM, CNY_Dave said:

A hand-pump vacuum oil changer can make the 3 drain-and-fills a lot easier.

It's not too hard either way. At least they put in a drain plug.

 

Thanks all for the additional info. I did a drain and refill (accidentally overfill) on Sunday. It feels like it is working better since then. I was using M1 Synthetic and replaced it with regular Dex III. 

 

The car is at the shop to get diagnosed. They did say the trans is slipping and will be test driving it in the morning when it is cold. Perhaps new fluid combined with transx will extend me for a while. Maybe I should put some of that into my PS fluid before I replace the weeping rack.

 

I need to do LCA bushing and struts too. Ultimately, if I can buy us a year or two on the transmission, I'll be thrilled. I'm hanging on to the theory that it is better to fix this car than buy something else for our son. 

[Rampage]

When applying the brakes, the brake light switch sends voltage to the Transmission Control Module and it should release the lockup solenoid for the torque converter.

Personally, I would drop the pan on the tranny. In side on the bottom of the pan is a doughnut shaped magnet. It can be removed and cleaned with paper towels. It is normal for it to have a light coating of metal powder on it from the wearing of clutches and bands. Its purpose is to keep that stuff from getting into the many bearings in the tranny. But if the crud is thick, then the clutches etc. have a lot of ware on them. I don't know automatics good enough to guess how much longer it has to live. But, I can say that I have gotten a used tranny from a yard with 100k miles on it and the crud was about a sixteenth of an inch, and the tranny went another 100k in our mail car.

When you do the control arm bushings keep in mind that the vehicles weight must be on the wheels when you tighten the nuts for the front and rear bushings. Mount everything and then drive the front wheels onto ramps and then tighten them. If the vehicle is jacked up and the control arm is hanging down and you tighten the mounting bolt and nuts, the rubber in the bushings may not last a year. I learned that the hard way.

When you have some time, read this page. I knew about two of their products that work wonders, but the Sperm Whale oil was a surprise.

https://www.lubegard.com/technology/

[Silverbullet555]

@Rampage

Thanks for the insight and the link. 

I would have definitely screwed up the bushings had you not said something. I also need to check the ball joints to see if they are shot. The mechanic did not say they had issues, but better to check now.

I'm fairly certain the torque converter system is the issue. It didn't do it for a few days and I thought the fluid swap made a good difference. Seems to be back or it was never gone. If I get the torque converter to lock within 2 miles of home, it won't unlock coming to a stop sign/light. If it doesn't go into lockup, then there are no issues. Really not thrilled about  pulling the transmission or engine to get at the torque converter so trying some other stuff first is on my list.

[Rampage]

Are you ok with splicing a wire onto another wire and then hooking it to a light bulb socket (with a 2 wire pigtail) and hook the other wire to 12volts?

Let me know.

I can look through the Wiring Diagram and try to find the wire under the dash (or under the hood) that goes to the Lockup Solenoid and you will have an indicator showing weather or not the Transmission Control Unit is releasing the solenoid or not.

If the TCU is not releasing it, then either it is bad, or receiving a flakey input from a sensor.

If it is releasing, then the problem should be the solenoid or the torque converter.

[Silverbullet555]

4 hours ago, Rampage said:

Are you ok with splicing a wire onto another wire and then hooking it to a light bulb socket (with a 2 wire pigtail) and hook the other wire to 12volts?

Let me know.

I can look through the Wiring Diagram and try to find the wire under the dash (or under the hood) that goes to the Lockup Solenoid and you will have an indicator showing weather or not the Transmission Control Unit is releasing the solenoid or not.

If the TCU is not releasing it, then either it is bad, or receiving a flakey input from a sensor.

If it is releasing, then the problem should be the solenoid or the torque converter.

I actually saw some discussion of wiring into some of the wiring to force different awd ratios, etc.  I guess the best answer is maybe. Especially as a diagnosis tool. Admittedly, I attempt not to cut into factory wiring, but can handle a soldering iron, shrink wrap and routing of wires. I'm all ears as I work to diagnose the issue so that I am confident in my next steps to repair the situation.

 

[Rampage]

OK, I'll work on getting some info for you.

Instead of stripping the insulation you can use a needle and pierce the insulation (lengthwise) of the wire and then tape it to hold it in place, or push it into the connector beside the wire, but that may not be a solid connection.

See if you can find a cheap low wattage bulb and pigtail socket, or just get a 194 bulb and solder wires to the contacts on the bulb.

The wire you will use can be thin. Even telephone (solid) wire will work to run the bulb. You can flatten the wire and solder it into the eye of the needle.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Rampage

[Rampage]

Now for the not fun part. Working under the dash can be nasty.
In the images I posted, you will see one end of the Lockup Solenoid coil is grounded and the other end goes out on a Lavender colored wire to Socket T4 Pin 13.
Plug B11 plugs into T4 and on Pin 13 the wire color changes to Red-yellow stripe then goes through the firewall to Plug B54 Pin 16 that connects to the TCU. 
T4 and B11 are located on top of the bellhousing. It is a 20 pin connector.
The Harness diagram shows the TCU is located around the steering columb. There are 2 plugs in it, B54 and B55. I have seen older units that had TCU right on the label.

You will tap into the Red-yellow stripe wire under the dash or under the hood with one of the bulb wires and the other wire on the bulb will go to ground.
The bulb will light when when the TCU turns on the Lockup Solenoid and will go out when it is released.
If the bulb goes out when you brake but it is still in lockup then the problem is in the tranny.
If the bulb stays on when you brake then It is the TCU or maybe a sensor input.

I know that most of the valves in the tranny have springs to return the valve piston when the solenoid releases. If the spring is weak or broken or there is sludg build up the piston will not move properly. One of the images is the valve and spring.

The Lockup Solenoid valve routes pressure between two ports going to the torque converter - Lock-up apply pressure and Lock-up release pressure port. So, if the problem ends up being in the tranny, it could be the solenoid, valve, valve spring, a leak in the release port or the torque converter it's self.

We'll see what the light says.

You can save or print any or all of this info. I cropped and resized the images to make the file size smaller.

[Silverbullet555]

@Rampage

 

Thanks man, that's some good info right there. I need to do some suspension bushings first, but I'll definitely seriously look at doing this to see what the solenoid is doing. I was hoping going into the tranny computer where you make it flash a code would tell me something. It just told me it didn't have any faults. Doesn't mean the valve isn't stuck.