Need help selecting the right OB / engine

[softroader]

3 minutes ago, Numbchux said:

I think what made what presslabs did very cool, was adding it into the software on the factory TCU, and still retaining the factory automatic functionality.

I agree, what presslabs did was kick a$$ impressive.  A very elegant hack that used unused memory in the stock TCU.  Good stuff.

Edited October 16, 2020 by softroader

[softroader]

46 minutes ago, Numbchux said:

Yes, you can read a bunch of live data through OBD II. [...] I have a cheap (<$20) dongle that I tether with my phone to read a ton of information.

Are you using Torque Lite on your phone for this?

(Their web page says it might not work with some Subaru ECU's, but doesn't say which ones).

Edited October 16, 2020 by softroader

[Numbchux]

1 hour ago, softroader said:

Are you using Torque Lite on your phone for this?

(Their web page says it might not work with some Subaru ECU's, but doesn't say which ones).

Wasn't super impressed with Torque Lite. My preference is the Android app "Piston"

[softroader]

13 minutes ago, Numbchux said:

Wasn't super impressed with Torque Lite. My preference is the Android app "Piston"

Cool, I just downloaded and installed Piston v2.1.3.  Agree it does look better than Torque Lite, useful basic functions instead of silly eye candy.  Also half the size.  Should have my ELM327 OBD-2 Bluetooth dongle from Amazon tomorrow, then I'll be all set to find me a car.

Edited October 16, 2020 by softroader

[GeneralDisorder]

7 hours ago, softroader said:

I added an oil pressure sensor to my DD.  I'll just do that to the OB too.  It drives an arduino which converts it to a signal that drives my oil pressure gauge and gets upset if the pressure is too low for the engine rpm.  And a few things like that.  Simple, and way more useful and responsive than the stock snail-slow gauge.  And way, way more useful than just an idiot light (it's really just a "too late" light).

Fun stuff to play with. Was a software engineer at one time myself and I do a lot of dyno tuning and some ECM hacking on my GM stuff.... 

But as an engine builder I typically don't care about oil pressure once the engine is built and it's verified before/during/after break-in. Obviously I care if it drops below 5 psi or so (idiot light zone) but beyond that... Pretty much useless as you aren't going to actually do anything (there's essentially nothing you can do) about it unless it starts knocking anyway. 

Oil temp.... Maybe.... but with modern synthetics that can hold their viscosity at 400 degrees it's basically also a non issue. 

I'm much more interested in EGT and AFR per cylinder if I can have it. And an oil level monitor that will indicate if the level drops more than 1 quart is useful. 

Pressure.... Not that useful. Changes a with RPM and temp, age of the oil, etc. Now if you want something that's actually useful - differential pressure across the filter so you know when it's in bypass - that's useful.

GD

 

[softroader]

4 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:

Fun stuff to play with. Was a software engineer at one time myself and I do a lot of dyno tuning and some ECM hacking on my GM stuff.... 

But as an engine builder I typically don't care about oil pressure once the engine is built and it's verified before/during/after break-in. Obviously I care if it drops below 5 psi or so (idiot light zone) but beyond that... Pretty much useless as you aren't going to actually do anything (there's essentially nothing you can do) about it unless it starts knocking anyway. 

Oil temp.... Maybe.... but with modern synthetics that can hold their viscosity at 400 degrees it's basically also a non issue. 

I'm much more interested in EGT and AFR per cylinder if I can have it. And an oil level monitor that will indicate if the level drops more than 1 quart is useful. 

Pressure.... Not that useful. Changes a with RPM and temp, age of the oil, etc. Now if you want something that's actually useful - differential pressure across the filter so you know when it's in bypass - that's useful.

GD

 

Cool, another software hacker!  Agree with all of this, with one exception...   My DD has a 22RE which didn't leave the factory as a hybrid but is one now.  It runs on gasoline and oil.  Lots of oil.  Like 1qt every 200 miles lots of oil.  The valve stem seals are shot (37 years old, I got my money's worth out of them), and the oil rings have seen better days, so she burns oil.  Can't fix that without removing the head bolts, and the head gasket is at 400,000+ miles, if I remove the head it will be a one way trip with the inevitable pitting.  So I leave it alone and just wave a chicken foot over it from time to time, hoping for the best.   I keep up with adding oil, but sometimes, especially when descending from the mountains when engine braking is high and there's low pressure below the stem seals, she uses a lot of oil.  So much so that, in hard turns, especially to the right, the oil pickup will unport and there's a brief loss of oil pressure.  This triggers the EICAS led driven by the arduino until the turn is over and the oil in the pan returns to level.  Time to add oil!  This has been very useful.

[softroader]

25 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:

I'm much more interested in EGT and AFR per cylinder if I can have it.

GD

 

The irony is that parameters like this are readily available by sniffing CANbus frames.  But CANbus cars no bueno.

[idosubaru]

12 hours ago, softroader said:

I am an engineer,

Loved your Little Boy comment! 

As am I.

Subaru head bolts are not TTY and need not be replaced if they’re in good condition (99% of the time they are and most of the 1% are old gen blown heads that have sat for 10 years)  

The reasons people are confused vary. Some think the angle torque spec, or Fel-Pro “requiring” them to be replaced, means they’re TTY.  Or archaic approaches, unfamiliarity with Subaru’s, “better safe than sorry” thinking, it worked - therefore this anecdote must be codified natural law now.....it matters not - they do not need replaced. 
 

[GeneralDisorder]

5 minutes ago, softroader said:

The irony is that parameters like this are readily available by sniffing CANbus frames.  But CANbus cars no bueno.

Not really. EGT isn't monitored and you only have 1 AFR sensor just the same as pre CANBUS vehicles. Oil level might be on the very new stuff..... Initially even the FB's didn't have oil level. It's like.... 14 and newer maybe? But I think it's only an input the the cluster not the ECU. 

GD

 

[softroader]

1 minute ago, idosubaru said:

As am I.

Subaru head bolts are not TTY and need not be replaced if they’re in good condition (99% of the time they are and most of the 1% are old gen blown heads that have sat for 10 years)  

The reasons people are confused vary. Some think the angle torque spec, or Fel-Pro “requiring” them to be replaced, means they’re TTY.  Or archaic approaches, unfamiliarity with Subaru’s, “better safe than sorry” thinking, it worked - therefore this anecdote must be codified natural law now.....it matters not - they do not need replaced. 
 

I just follow the FSM.  If it says don't replace undamaged ones, they're not TTY.  Baffling to me why some people still want to argue about it when this is so clear in the FSM, and the FSM is so readily available for download.

[idosubaru]

21 minutes ago, softroader said:

when engine braking is high and 

 

 

brake pads are cheap and might be easier.

I think “it’s a hybrid now” was a joke right?  Because I laughed...then thought, wait maybe it is some sort of hybrid he converted!
 

[softroader]

3 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:

Not really. EGT isn't monitored and you only have 1 AFR sensor just the same as pre CANBUS vehicles. Oil level might be on the very new stuff..... Initially even the FB's didn't have oil level. It's like.... 14 and newer maybe? But I think it's only an input the the cluster not the ECU. 

GD

 

Good point.  I guess you would have to install EGT thermocouples in the header downpipes and do some software magic to get that.  Not sure about individual cylinder AFR, that sounds tricky.

[idosubaru]

3 minutes ago, softroader said:

Baffling to me why some people still want to argue about it when this is so clear in the FSM, and the FSM is so readily available for download.

Yep. Baffling is the correct word. 

[softroader]

Just now, idosubaru said:

brake pads are cheap and might be easier.

I think “it’s a hybrid now” was a joke right?  Because I laughed...then thought, wait maybe it is some sort of hybrid he converted!
 

Yeah, "hybrid" was a joke   Stole that from my dentist, who also runs an ancient 22RE in his pickup truck.  And I agree brake pads are cheap, though I rarely use the brakes, I last replaced the pads in 2009, almost exactly 100,000 miles ago, and there's still quite a bit left.  They do fade quite quickly though on the DD, so prolonged use isn't a good option.

[nipper]

On 10/13/2020 at 6:58 PM, 1 Lucky Texan said:

everything I have read points to the 4EAT being much superior off-road to the 5spd.

just  my opinion(also, my WRX's 5spd removed all the teeth from 2nd gear - under 70K miles, NO power mods)

The 4EAT is considered bulletproof as long as its maintaned

[softroader]

12 minutes ago, nipper said:

The 4EAT is considered bulletproof as long as its maintaned

Bulletproof is what I am looking for.  It would be nice not to have to replace the clutch every 100-150,000 miles.  Also curious if the 5EAT (and its TCU) is a direct swap into a Gen 2 OB H4 with 4EAT?

[GeneralDisorder]

5EAT is not a direct swap (not even indirect) and they have a LOT more problems. Avoid. You don't need more gears anyway. 

GD

[heartless]

stay with the 4EAT - much more robust

[idosubaru]

8 hours ago, softroader said:

Bulletproof is what I am looking for.  It would be nice not to have to replace the clutch every 100-150,000 miles.  Also curious if the 5EAT (and its TCU) is a direct swap into a Gen 2 OB H4 with 4EAT?

4EAT is far superior to any other Subaru transmission, including the 5EAT.  The 5EAT isn't as robust, there's nothing to gain except a few years newer, and the controls make it nearly impossible anyway. 

[softroader]

8 hours ago, nipper said:

The 4EAT is considered bulletproof as long as its maintaned

 

7 hours ago, GeneralDisorder said:

5EAT is not a direct swap (not even indirect) and they have a LOT more problems. Avoid. You don't need more gears anyway.

 

28 minutes ago, heartless said:

stay with the 4EAT - much more robust

 

21 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

4EAT is far superior to any other Subaru transmission, including the 5EAT.  The 5EAT isn't as robust, there's nothing to gain except a few years newer, and the controls make it nearly impossible anyway. 

Thanks for the replies everyone.  4EAT it is.  Seems like Subaru engineering and reliability is progessing backwards after 2004.

[nipper]

15 minutes ago, softroader said:

 

 

 

Thanks for the replies everyone.  4EAT it is.  Seems like Subaru engineering and reliability is progessing backwards after 2004.

Actually its getting etter again but you have to get to the more recent ones to get there.

[softroader]

3 minutes ago, nipper said:

Actually its getting better again but you have to get to the more recent ones to get there.

You're looking for a very recent OB, right?  I hope that works out well for you.  Several late model OBs in my neighborhood that the owners seem happy with.  I think I'll end up with a Gen 2 H4 4EAT after considering all the good advice I have received here, and I like the Gen 2 OBs more and more as I get more familiar with them.

[nipper]

5 minutes ago, softroader said:

You're looking for a very recent OB, right?  I hope that works out well for you.  Several late model OBs in my neighborhood that the owners seem happy with.  I think I'll end up with a Gen 2 H4 4EAT after considering all the good advice I have received here, and I like the Gen 2 OBs more and more as I get more familiar with them.

I have a 3rd gen now, I loved my 2nd gen OB, but now I need a power liftgate, so Im stuck going 5th gen. Actually compared to cars of similar years they are equal or better then their peers and still on the basic side of technology.

[softroader]

Question about Gen 2 emissions equipment.  The attached dataplate image is from a 2001 H4 4EAT OBW I looked at last week.  The other image is from the 2004 FSM.

I have read that PZEV hurts engine performance and economy, and is more expensive to repair.  According to cars101 PZEV appeared on the OBW in 2004.  Should I try to avoid the 2004 California OB's?  Presumably this would be "C" in Engine Type.  I am in the People's Republic of Kalifornia if that makes a difference.  I will need to register the car and pass emissions testing.  Interested in how undesirable it is to have PZEV on the car, not interested in discussing climate change or any of that stuff.

[softroader]

Related question: does anyone know if a non-California emissions 2000-2004 OB can be registered in California without difficulty or penalty, or be rejected for emissions testing because it's not a California emissions car?  DMV is impossible to reach right now or I would ask them.