mickytrus Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Hi, Title says it all..... She starts right up..... Actually was sitting..... for a month.....(before today) turn key..... let pump pressurize..... turn key to start....... starts right up.... let the key go to the run position.... and she dies....(cuts right out.) If you hold the key in the start position.... she will continue to run......(not a good thing to do... but, ....) So this first appeared as an intermittent problem.......(like almost it was missing(misfire)... running on four... I mean three.. or two .. cylinders).. But, now....... it is not intermittent.... thanks Micky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share Posted November 9, 2020 So I was thinking.... maybe... .ignition switch..... I had one out of another car....... threw it in......... car still dies when the key goes to the run position........ Is there a way to bypass.....(like hot wire) bring power to the distributor.... like what if I bring a wire... from the battery........ +........ to the coil..........+ (thinking) (maybe the computer is bad????) yet... I have not seen one of these ever go bad.....( car has 313k) (corrosion???) Schrug, Micky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee2 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 A lot of folks replace their ignition with a push button. I found this There a re probably many more articles to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 May help to add the finer details of car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXArchusXx Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 I have to give mine gas when starting cold. revving to 2k rpm for 10 seconds should keep it alive. inspect the spark plugs and make sure you have spark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share Posted November 9, 2020 Problem as early stated:::::: ""turn key to start....... starts right up.... let the key go to the run position.... and she dies....(cuts right out.)"" Explained with greater detail After the vehicle fires up.......... (as I mentioned initially).... if I hold the key in the "start" position....(this keeps the starter engaged--- which is not good) the vehicle will continue to run .....(as long as I hold the key in the "START" position..... car continues to run....Understood.....) So this is (what we learn to do as drivers) ::::::: is we let go of the key when it fires up.....RIGHT!... perfectly normal thing to do....(we are taught to do that as[car drivers]) and we go our merry way....... driving.... NOT THIS CAR.... This car dies...... when the key is released from the finger tips and springs to the "RUN" position. it is DOA......... Might as well have turned the car off............. The ignition system is not getting power...... Am I clear enough.........?????? Thnks, Micky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 what year/model? if someone were spraying carb cleaner, starting fluid or maybe a stream of propane gas into the intake, would the car try to keep running? any CEL or pending codes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted November 10, 2020 Author Share Posted November 10, 2020 There are no codes..... well, no lite on..... hasn't ever been...... Taking what you are saying...... which is to say one suspects something.... which in your case.... mentioning.. the idea that possibly when the key is released from the start position to run position..(normal starting procedure) ... the fuel pump is not pumping....fuel anymore.......KAPUT...... I haven't checked this... so I can't say yes.... or no..... but, will say that my understanding about the fuel pump is that it is powered the same(receives it power the same way) during start verses the key being in run position...there is not two circuits to power the fuel pump........ But, there are two circuits to start the vehicle...... (Hence that is why the starter stops turning.... and can unmesh from the flywheel ring gear) BUT, your idea gives me an idea.... which is..... possibly to take an inductive timing light....(geeze,, if I can find where it is... haven't used it in IONS) It will flash if there is spark in the secondary circuit...(hooked up to #1 wire)....... of the ignition system....(running)..... and when it dies.......(??????????) if there is no electricity to create spark.... it should just flat out.... not light.... KAPUT...... SO.......................... In start position, holding key there in start position..(simulating that it is running but, starter is engaged) ...... inductive timing should be lit...... (definitely) THEN let key go.......... light should drop out immediately ........( if no electricity is in secondary ignition system) Any inkling of light while key is in run position indicates..... further investigation of a fuel issue......... Thoughts?? what about a fuesable link.....???? is there any such thing....... seems like..... the two circuits.... start works....... run doesn't work..... fuseable link.......????????????? MIcky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 There is a mechanism /circuit that shuts off the fuel pump if the engine stops running. The reason is to stop pumping fuel in theevent of an accident. Exactly how this is done varies with the model and year and type of fuel system. There is a seperate signal sent to this circuit while the key is in the cranking position, otherwise no fuel would be pumped, making starting difficult. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 On 11/9/2020 at 5:40 PM, Step-a-toe said: May help to add the finer details of car Car .....as in year, engine, fuel system such as carb or Spfi, mpfi. I have come across this problem but cannot recall what was the cause but I think it was in the ignition barrel electrical connection integrity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 Yeah, So one can't entirely rule out the possibility of loss of fuel when key is turned...... So yeah, thought I put that up top..... Appologies...... 92 Loyale 1.8L(SPfi) 5 speed Ignition barrel electrical connection integrity......(I like how that sounds!) I have two of these pups that are down..(sorta DOA's...had good lives).... so I grabbed an ignition switch out of the other one... It did not change anything... still have the issue....(just adding this event here.... no sure if it says anything or helps...info is info...) about I.B.E.C.I (Ignition barrel electrical connection integrity) Micky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee2 Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 let the key go to the run position.... and she dies....(cuts right out.) This sounds more like an electrical problem than a fuel problem. If the fuel supply were cut off the engine would likely sputter for a while then die. Sudden death seems more likely to be electrical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 is there a 'motor control relay' or similar? Had an old Nissan for my daughter that would intermittently stall - it was a relay dropping-out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru2 Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 13 hours ago, mickytrus said: Yeah, So one can't entirely rule out the possibility of loss of fuel when key is turned...... So yeah, thought I put that up top..... Appologies...... 92 Loyale 1.8L(SPfi) 5 speed Ignition barrel electrical connection integrity......(I like how that sounds!) I have two of these pups that are down..(sorta DOA's...had good lives).... so I grabbed an ignition switch out of the other one... It did not change anything... still have the issue....(just adding this event here.... no sure if it says anything or helps...info is info...) about I.B.E.C.I (Ignition barrel electrical connection integrity) Micky Sure,but,does it work? Does it output 12V in RUN position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 Does it output 12 volts in run position? I did change the ignition switch(an old one from a 91) that was a known good switch..... this doesn't answer your question...... Do you know what wire on the ignition switch(color) would be the one to check? Thanks, Micky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg454 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 I know on older cars that is a symptom of the ballast resister being bad. When cranking, full battery voltage is fed to the coil for a stronger spark when starting. After the ignition returns to run, the coil is powered through a ballast resister lowering the voltage at the coil as not as strong a spark is needed. So with a bad ballast resister the car will run in "start" and die in "run" key position. Disclaimer... I dont know what car you have or if it even has a ballast resister or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru2 Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 (edited) On 11/16/2020 at 6:25 PM, mickytrus said: Does it output 12 volts in run position? I did change the ignition switch(an old one from a 91) that was a known good switch..... this doesn't answer your question...... Do you know what wire on the ignition switch(color) would be the one to check? Thanks, Micky The big black one No ballast resistor on a SPFI Sube. Edited November 20, 2020 by naru2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 Thanks....... I will check the black wire in the run position.... for 12v Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobydube Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 I believe that the engine runs off the battery during ignition and switches to the alternator once the key returns to the run position. So you might check the alternator wiring for it being in place, and then the alternator. There are also three wires that go bad in the same area. The ground wire gets hard and goes bad where it is bolted into the chassis, just in front of the battery, causing the engine to run rough with headlights on or working any other accessory. The wire that comes off of the bottom of the hot battery terminal wire and goes to the fusible link box, gets hard and loses it's ability to conduct electricity. The wire that is bolted into the back of the alternator also gets hard and loses it's ability to conduct electricity, causing the engine to kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 There is no switching between battery and alternator. The alternator output is wired to the battery, only 1 fusible link in between. When the alternator spins fast enough, power goes to the battery and other loads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbodog Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 theres a wire missing from the coil that tells the fuel pump to stay on, i had this issue, check for broken or missing connectors near the coil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted December 27, 2020 Author Share Posted December 27, 2020 I am bringing this post back to life... I got a chance to look at the car again today....... Where I left it last. (like a month ago).. was..... a dead battery and turn the key to start(it starts)... let go of the key(it dies)...... SO today I jumped the (loyale)car with the Soobie Outback. I wasn't expecting any results..... I didn't expect the battery to just even crank over with the cables on it........ SO what I was anticipating......... ENDED up being TOTALLY UNTRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It jumped..... and I held the key(for a while in the start position... not that I thought it was relevent. to do..... bUUUT did it anyway) SOOOOOOOOO..... I finally let the key go........ and the freakin' (loyale)car was running........ This motor with 300k on her.... runs like a top........... SOOOO I didn't do anything..........(the idea is to drive her,,,,, her last ten to fifteen miles to the scrap yard) I just let the car run..... and didn't fiddle with anything.....(nooooo fiddle playing,,,, not a single bit)..... (Spent the time cleaning out the car.... took the stereo out.... etc etc.....) My point here... The car warmed up beautifully..... the idle kicked down beautifully..... ran for about an hour....(iwas amazed)....... I was there when it died......Cuz it was inevitable.................................... just completely stopped.... running............(like a heart that stops beatin'''''''') DEAD... Interesting.............. I tried to turn the key. to crank it.... Battery DEAD.... SOOOOOOOOO the car ran for an hour...... ON the juice in the battery..... the alternator was not powering the vehicle.??????or charging battery????? I have the battery on an overnight slow charge......(deep cycle) Alternator( I didn't look at the gauge while running....[that kinda sucks]) I will clean some connections.......( if I have to....I have another alternator.....) I am just scratching my head.......... If this is all part of the same problem..... It ran fine............. where as before it didn't even stay running?????????? sounds like corrosion ........... on connectors..... As stated above.... I will look at connectors at the coil.... and the alt....... Any thoughts... Thanks, Micky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbodog Posted December 27, 2020 Share Posted December 27, 2020 yeah could just be bad alt! last loyale i had the alternator was bad putting out AC power and it fried the distributor.. was funny cause it passed the test at the store, apparently they don't check if its DC power or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted December 27, 2020 Share Posted December 27, 2020 A few things that might or might not help... The OEM alternators wear out one of the slip ring brushes by around 150,000 miles. When it happens, the alternator just doesn't put out the amps - but it keeps the charge light off, so you don't notice until the battery is dead, or you get lucky, and see the alt light dimly flickering in the dark at idle. The OEM alternator when everything is working well, makes enough to run the engine at idle, but not much more. Haadlights on at idle, you are drawing some power off the battery. Jumper cables - Most of the typical lower cost ones I've seen are made with 10AWG wire with crazy thick insulation. They won't crank most engines without some charge in the dead battery. The jumper cables I make are #1AWG wire. I have jump started diesel construction equipment with them, with no battery. The engine will run for a few good drives over 2-3 days before the battery will be too weak to start the engine. Going by my experience, with middle grade or better batteries, biggest capacity that will fit in the space - not what the book says the car needs, and not near end of life - 5years. If the battery discharged to the point where it couldn't run, I would expect it would gradually run crummy, till it died, not quit suddenly. Quitting suddenly is a typical timing belt failure symptom. Just do a check, watch the distributor rotor while someone cranks it, it should turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted December 27, 2020 Share Posted December 27, 2020 get a voltmeter on there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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