sirtokesalot Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 (edited) Is it normal for an automatic awd outback to have front wheel spin when accelerating hard? Edited December 9, 2020 by sirtokesalot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzam Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 how much spin? what surface? Tire condition? From a dead stop? Does it change when you put a FWD fuse in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirtokesalot Posted December 9, 2020 Author Share Posted December 9, 2020 it spins the front up prety fast for a few seconds it varies how much depending on the situation. always on dry pavement there snow tires about half worn. it can happen from a dead stop or if im rolling slowly then floor it and it is able to downshift to first will lose some traction in the front and can feel it walking left and right. usually happens most if theres any kind of turn involved. i notice it most when taking off from a dead stop tho sometimes will spin just a second or 2 and sometimes will spin across an intersection if i dont back out. the rear seems to be spinning as well if im on ice but if its dry its mostly front spin from a stop if i push to hard on the pedal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 ASSuming it's not an H6 VDC model, that will have MPT AWD, which is extremely FWD biased. Hard to quantify how much delay is "normal". It always feels like a week to me (why I'm obsessed with VDC cars...), but I've spent hundreds of hours ice racing. Put the FWD fuse in and drive it around for awhile, that will completely disable the rear drive, and give you an idea of how much power is getting sent to the back. The rear drive is just a set of clutch packs. They can stick and wear. Not a terrible job, doesn't require pulling the transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 10, 2020 Share Posted December 10, 2020 5 hours ago, sirtokesalot said: Is it normal for an automatic awd outback to have front wheel spin when accelerating hard? Yes if a FWD fuse is installed, or the 4WD is “locked” and a driveshaft removed. Yes if the tires are garbage, which unknown unnamed “half tread snow tires” could easily be. Maybe theyre Nokians, manufactured last year and were driven 25,000 miles....? A lot of (cheap) snow tires are garbage, particularly after year 1 or 2. I’ve seen them do fine for a year or two then drop off a cliff. I’ve seen them perform wretchedly dangerous and shown initial signs of material degradation at two years old and 75% tread depth. Tread depth isn’t very telling and I consider 50% snows more of a red flag than 50% all seasons . I’d consider any 50% snow tires garbage. I might still drive them, like on dry roads only or light easy snow. but they’re trash unless I know the brand age and miles and that it wasn’t stored outside in the sun too long. 02 and UV degrades the materials quickly. cheap snow tires seem to have less of those imbedded protective chemicals...I mean hey it’s only low sun northern latitude people buying them, why bother, save a buck!? yours might be awesome but I wouldn’t even think about anything else until I read the date stamp on all 4 of them. *** Look at the date stamp on the side wall. Four digit code - what are the numbers, that’ll tell which week (first 2 digits) and year (last two digits) they were manufactured. Yes, it seems like 4WD would compensate a little better for tires. But, like coding, garbage in garbage out for cars too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtdash Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 (edited) Also...I'd put it in 1st and see if it's as bad. If it's better than you can 'manually shift' when warranted. Not ideal but easier than fixing the clutch packs - unless you're bored and have a heated shop (I sure as heck don't). I had a '99 Foz w/a similar issue that was better in 1st than in D for starting out when slick. Only had 97K miles, but unknown previous ATF maintenance. I'd also do the 3x Drain>Refill>Drive cycles mentioned on here. It didn't help mine, but it was due for fresh ATF anyway. Edited December 11, 2020 by wtdash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 Yep, manually selecting 1st makes the duty C logic a bit more aggressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirtokesalot Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 well im not 100% sure how old the tires are i cannot find the date code on any of the 4 there all the same brand. it honestly seems like the awd is becoming less and less as i go todays ride home i went to pull out into a main road and the front right just lit up under light throttle and slowly crept forward until the tire quit spinning before it took off and accelerated normally. i do have a spare tail section with clutch pack and a solenoid. i had kept the entire rear section of the trans housing with the clutches and solenoid. does fluid need to be drained to pull that section off? im going to put another set of tires on it tomarrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Yeah it’s can be hard to find particularly if you’re not used to looking. Its almost always closer to the wheel than the outer edge. It’s usually in a small box like 2” across and an inch or less high. Rectangular or rectangular with round corners. But everything you’ve said tells me they’re trash. In addition to prior description you didn’t follow up with any recollection of how old they ‘might’ be. Sounds like garbage. I’m hard on tires obviously but living in Unmaintained mountains makes it real clear to see. The 4EATs do get a little slow and sloppy but I wouldn’t condemn the thing until it’s got at a minimum known good tires to make a fair test (ideally new so it’s not a guess), and preferably fresh fluid. People rave at 4EAT improvements with some redline ATF but that’s $$$ and a fluid change alone can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirtokesalot Posted December 13, 2020 Author Share Posted December 13, 2020 Oh i know where the date code is supposed to be but it just wasent there. Possibly might be on the other side of the tire? I swapped the tires from my buddys car last night witch are less than a year old and it is still spinning tje front off unless i baby it when taking off from a stop. Will fluid come out if i remove the rear section to change those clutches? How much fluid would i need to buy if i change those clutches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtdash Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 (edited) Drain the fluid and reuse if it's not due to be replaced (every 30K miles ). And some will still have leak out. I don't recall how much but a quart of DEXIII should suffice to top it off. You'll need that rear section's gasket too, and I'd suggest replace the Duty C while in there. From here: http://opposedforces.com/parts/legacy/us_b12/type_21/automatic_transmission/at_transfer_and_extension/illustration_1/ (USMB won't allow bigger pics?) Edited December 13, 2020 by wtdash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirtokesalot Posted December 13, 2020 Author Share Posted December 13, 2020 Can i use rtv there? I have the duty c solenoid from the original transmission as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, sirtokesalot said: Can i use rtv there? I have the duty c solenoid from the original transmission as well Yep sure can. Oh you mean instead of a gasket? Never done that. I can’t see why that would be a problem, that would be an awfully small thickness difference between the case and rear transfer using RTV instead of the gasket Capture the fluid and reuse it. I drain the pan and don’t recall much coming out but I may not pay much attention either. Ah good. Yep date codes often one sided. maybe the tires are fine once this sloppy trans is tightened up. Edited December 13, 2020 by idosubaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirtokesalot Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 (edited) i bought the gasket from the dealer today and pulled it apart the clutch pack was still in great shape so i left it and only swapped the duty c solenoid. i believe the problem is fixed as it is refusing to spin the tires now form a stop when i punch it where before it would have just roasted the tire away until i got up to speed. talk about waiting for the last minute to fix it too were getting that big snow storm tomorrow afternoon and it would have been a crappy drive home from work with fwd Edited December 16, 2020 by sirtokesalot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosens Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Event: Winter Storm Warning Alert: ...WINTER STORM WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT FROM 2 PM THIS AFTERNOON TO 1 PM EST THURSDAY... * WHAT...Heavy snow expected. Total snow accumulations of 12 to 16 inches. Winds gusting as high as 40 mph. * WHERE...Portions of northeast New Jersey, southern Connecticut and southeast New York. * WHEN...From 2 PM this afternoon to 1 PM EST Thursday. * IMPACTS...Travel could be very difficult to impossible. The hazardous conditions could impact the morning or evening commute. Instructions: If you must travel, keep an extra flashlight, food, and water in your vehicle in case of an emergency. Check local Department of Transportation information services for the latest road conditions. Target Area: Northern Fairfield Northern Middlesex Northern New Haven Northern New London Southern Fairfield Southern New Haven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirtokesalot Posted December 18, 2020 Author Share Posted December 18, 2020 Well i dont know now. On jack stands it will engage the rear and spin them up but on the ground in snow this morning it seems like the rear aren't doing much of anything under load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 If you cut the one wire to the Duty C solenoid that will force it to "lock" the clutches plates into 4WD. That would be a test - you could depin that pin from the TCU or trans harness and then repin it if you want to be stock. Or just cut it and splice it back together as a test. Or you could just do a simple modification like a few of us have done. That's how you install the "locking switch" on 4EAT's. I've done it a bunch of times. Cut one wire (the duty C wire at the TCU or trans harness passengers rear side of the engine bay). Install a simple on/off switch in the cabin and run one wire from the switch to each wire on the Duty C wire you cut. then you can turn on and off at will. One way will disrupt the wire - "locking" the 4WD. The other way just returns it to normal. Iv'e done it a bunch of times so I can "lock" the 4WD in snow, offroad, mud, or to keep a subaru in bad shape drivable for a little while longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirtokesalot Posted December 19, 2020 Author Share Posted December 19, 2020 update. removing the yellow/green stripe wire from the tcu yields no change definitely not getting torque bind ither with the duty c disconnected. according tot he wiring diagram for 2001 outback the yellow/green stripe wire should be the duty c solenoid. what els can fail in this system? could the clutches be compromised somehow even though they look in great shape? how likely could the 2 seals on the shaft fail that direct the fluid into the clutch pack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirtokesalot Posted December 19, 2020 Author Share Posted December 19, 2020 well im going to get another gasket set and the ring seals and hope thats what it is. seems to be the only logical thing it could be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 15 hours ago, sirtokesalot said: update. removing the yellow/green stripe wire from the tcu yields no change definitely not getting torque bind ither with the duty c disconnected. according tot he wiring diagram for 2001 outback the yellow/green stripe wire should be the duty c solenoid. what els can fail in this system? could the clutches be compromised somehow even though they look in great shape? how likely could the 2 seals on the shaft fail that direct the fluid into the clutch pack? so removing power form the Duty C didn’t lock it? I have no idea. Check the clutch basket - they get ridges you can sand down. I thought they encouraged binding but Maybe they’re hanging the plates in a way that prevents them from engaging? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirtokesalot Posted December 19, 2020 Author Share Posted December 19, 2020 (edited) 43 minutes ago, idosubaru said: so removing power form the Duty C didn’t lock it? I have no idea. Check the clutch basket - they get ridges you can sand down. I thought they encouraged binding but Maybe they’re hanging the plates in a way that prevents them from engaging? I saw a picture of that on the transmission side basket. I dident think to look at mine while it was apart. Its just odd to me that it engages with the car on jack stands but not on the ground. Dealer dident have the ring seals so probly gonna have to order those online Edited December 19, 2020 by sirtokesalot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, sirtokesalot said: I saw a picture of that on the transmission side basket. I dident think to look at mine while it was apart. Its just odd to me that it engages with the car on jack stands but not on the ground. Dealer dident have the ring seals so probly gonna have to order those online I missed that. That would look strange. Maybe the rear drum (whatever it’s called?) is sheared off. It’s the one that slides into the trans. They rarely shear and I’m uncertain of the symptoms when they do. But I’ve sold that part from trans I’ve disassembled to people who had it happen. That would prevent 4WD but the two shafts rubbing might have enough friction to move free hanging wheels. Has a shaft that slides into the trans and can be hard to pull out sometimes They might be turning when in the air, but I have doubts if it’s really doing anything. Maybe there’s bleed over pressure or residual rotation to spin the wheels in the air, but there’s no real usable torque being applied. Either way it is strange - but if you disconnected the correct duty c pin then that guarantees the problem is in that rear extension housing I believe. Edited December 19, 2020 by idosubaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirtokesalot Posted December 19, 2020 Author Share Posted December 19, 2020 i have a plan going. i still have another transmission here with a bad front diff. im going to pull it apart tomarrow after work and check the basket in it. if that one is good im going to use that transmissions basket and use the clutch pack from my original transmission that did work with new seals on it. im gonna pick up the seals and another gasket monday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Hope you have a lift. I've done many on my back, its not fun! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 11 hours ago, lmdew said: Hope you have a lift. I've done many on my back, its not fun! It’s deceptive - seems easy, but not once you’re under there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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