Tire Suggestions?

[brus brother]

Need a set of all season tires for New England driving. 2008 Outback.

Any suggestions for value 225 55 17 appreciated.

Prices seem all over the place.

 

[idosubaru]

2 hours ago, brus brother said:

Need a set of all season tires for New England driving. 2008 Outback.

Any suggestions for value 225 55 17 appreciated.

Prices seem all over the place.

 

You get what you pay for to some extent.   There’s really no short answer to this rabbit hole topic.

short answer - read inordinate amount of reviews, or buy michellin or buy a cheaper tire and plan to replace it every 2-3 years for better rain/snow traction (explanation below)  

long......

tire feedback and understanding in general is at about a 7 year old level. I’ve never heard one good tire discussion in person or even on a car forum that’s backed by even a tiny bit of data and makes sense.  Anecdotes and opinions everywhere that have no technical design basis and usually don’t line up with reality.  I’m fine with some of that, but this topic is nearly devoid of it entirely. I had to dig into research to learn something helpful and practical.

If you want a great tire the rest of your life and to never think about it again buy Michelin. They are great tires all around, nearly everything they make is good. They’re well respected and ranked as a company, and generally hire experienced decorated engineers/leaders without bragging about it, so it’s not a surprise they’re products are good either.

It’s all about materials engineering and what they’re putting into the tires to protect them from UV and oxygen degradation.  That’s problematic for a variety of reasons - mostly no one is talking about it and it’s unknown.

Think about toys, tools, anything left outside that’s plastic or rubber. It degrades.  I could make a huge list. Those materials, particularly cheap or not intended for outdoor use, degrade fast in sunlight and exposure. Who hasn’t experience cracked and broken dried out brittle plastic/rubber handles, Tools, Toys, pools, sleds, planters, etc left outside in the summer sun?

we left high quality made in the USA plastic snow sleds from the 1970s out last summer and they fell to pieces.  They were flawless without a crack for 40 years and one summer of exposure killed them. 

tires do the same thing. Go to Florida and find craigslist tires that have sat outside - HOLy smokes they can look like the Grand Canyon even with 90% tread and two years old.  And they will SUCK in the rain and snow up here. I’ve seen it multiple times. Even on gravel they’ll slide around with full tread because they’re so dried out and hard. It’s like having Big Wheels (remember those?!)  tires on your car, the ABS won’t even work normal in the rain.  It’s even unhelpful to leave tires in the same Position for extended periods of time for a few echnical materials and exposure reasons. 

That’s why there is significant documentation on tire life at the NHTSA and in Canada.  and why RV crowd and others cover their tires.

That’s what happens to tires as they age. Manufacturers treat the compounds to prevent this degradation process.  

My guess - is that cheaper tires use less of these preventative chemicals, compounds, and manufacturing processes. 

My guess may be wrong regarding the causative reasoning but I’ve seen the outcome numerous times no matter what is causing it. And it’s always cheaper tires. A cheap tire can perform just as good as an expensive tire in year one or two. After that the difference can escalate fast.  I’ve seen numerous examples of cheap tires (was mart cheapies are particularly bad) showing cracking in less than two years and sliding all over the snow.  

geneal Altimaxs tires are a great example  as they’re loved by Subaru crowd and forums. they’re decent tires and cheap - but have weak sidewalls and degrade by year two. I’ve seen 4-8 of them with bulging sides but live in an area with bad potholes. I’d recommend them in areas with better roads. They perform okay later in life in snow, they’re better than most cheap tires or no names for sure and they’re not cracking early. But snow traction suffer by year two.

and I’ve had to convince people I’m trying to help - who don’t believe me - “look at all that tread, they passed inspection, you got to be kidding me, they’re not old”...that I’m right and no one else they’re talking to knows what they’re talking about.  Good grief that’s not easy beduse literally noon is aware of tire life span and the driving factors behind it  

additionally people have various levels of snow experience and tolerance. Someone living in flat rural Ohio with no traffic who gets to work from home when it snows easily raves about the same tire that would kill someone who needs safer tires in a fast urban or mountainous area that never gets plowed and they have to go to work.  again skewing reviews and opions all over the place. 

the Altimax tires are decent but not for more than 2 years for me on a car I need to rely on in the snow. I drive nasty unmaintained mountain roads with horrid grades. They’re good but degradation doesn’t go unnoticed here like it did before I moved to a rural mountain property.   

*** The huge issue here, is that most online reviews happen in that first year window before any degradation happens.  Whatever they do in manufacturing isn’t as likely to impact reviews. So those low possibility of seeing the technical aspects of tire quality bare themselves out in tire reviews. But I’ll look for hints of it when reading them. 

so we have no good data to go on. Tire materials and ingredients are unknown. Reviews are made by people who don’t know 1% of what I just said and they make the reviews before experiencing issues....and they usually then blame the car “too little weight in the rear”, “4WD is getting old”, “this brand sucks in the snow”...or some other invalid assumption.  All of which I’ve heard numerous times form people POed at their poor performing car (which is really tire issues)  

sorry for the diatribe. The only brand tire I’ve seen that consistently shows great performance across all seasons for 4+ years is Michellin. I haven’t gotten into perellis - I don’t buy them and no ones car I’ve ever worked on has them.

Other tire companies make great tires too but it’s hard to pick them out because some are less stellar. So read lots of reviews if snow traction is bad.

I buy high end snow tires (XIce or Nokian, based on Canadian research, the low end ones degrade faster as well) and inexpensive all seasons.

If I had to buy one all season and drive it in the winter I’d lean towards michellin all seasons, unless some raging number of reviews and price lured me to try something else.

Edited March 7, 2021 by idosubaru

[moosens]

That gets reply of the month award hands down. 
 

Jim , just hoping you don’t go too cheap. Not worth it. Best of luck. Bad year for potholes too. Maybe hold off until repairs are complete usually around May 1 speaking from an urban perspective. 

[idosubaru]

To further moosens point - waiting is good. if I need it for snow I like to buy them I’m the late fall right when snow is falling so I’m getting fresh tread on snow.  I want to maximize tires towards winter use not summer.  I’ll run bad tires in the summer until winter but I’ve got multiple subarus so I can leave that one sit if it’ll see rainy days.

but if they’re needed they’re needed. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

I will say, I just don't think super-long tread life tires are a great idea. If you end up with irreparable damage to one tire and can't find a partially used replacement, you will lose a lot of value replacing pricey tires. I also lean toward a little stickier tires and those usually don't have super long life. I would rather give-up lifespan to get better traction. Everything your car does while moving depends on 4 small patches of rubber.

I have used Kumho on both cars (though radically different models) and thought they were decent value. The tires on the Outback at present are a little better, Pirelli Cinturatos, that so far are great.

You might call-up  a couple of Discount Tire stores and ask what other customers have been putting on their Subarus. Local info/reviews are more pertinent than the choice of some guy in Texas. Keep location in mind also if reading reviews at TireRack or other places online.

Tires are still 'mostly' hand-made (or 'semi automated) so, make sure your retailer has a good reputation.

Not everyone needs all seasons either. Touring tires could be better for some folks, especially in the north where many switch to true snow tires.

 

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

46 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

To further moosens point - waiting is good. if I need it for snow I like to buy them I’m the late fall right when snow is falling so I’m getting fresh tread on snow.  I want to maximize tires towards winter use not summer.  I’ll run bad tires in the summer until winter but I’ve got multiple subarus so I can leave that one sit if it’ll see rainy days.

but if they’re needed they’re needed. 

 

Good point, I 'usually' buy my tires before the rainy season here.

[NV Zeno]

Good info, Ido.

Please don't read the following as disagreeing with you.

If the OP drives enough miles each year to wear down before degradation, why not a set of "mid-grade" quality tires?  All Seasons are numerous and plentiful .  One of the national chains (Les Schwab, Discount Tire out west here) ought to carry several types and price ranges in that size to choose from.  Can't beat the service at some of the big chains for free flat repairs and rotations. I personally run high end summers on my Taurus, and Blizzaks from Tire Rack on my Subaru, but that's me.  Your needs may vary.

FWIW, I've had many, many different types of tires over the years, and the pricey Michelins far outpace the others for quality and longevity.  

Just my 2 bucks

[brus brother]

All good info.

The problem I see with going with Michelins at twice the price of the others is that if you have a failure with one tire and need to replace all 4 to appease the AWD gods, it's a hurting feeling.

I do keep my cars garaged so UV degradation is minimized. If on average 12-13K/year drives, that's roughly 3.5 years on a 45K mile tire so even without lathering on sunscreen, it should last.

Probably looking at a mid grade tire for the above reasons.

Only other question I haven't been able to sort out is "road noise". I once bought Triple Tred and they were extremely loud from day 1.

[Lightning Racer]

No personal experience yet with these, but I've been shopping tires and reading reviews and just ordered some BF Goodrich G-Force Comp 2 A/S+. It was between that and the Michelin CrossClimate 2 for me. I liked that the BFG was a lot cheaper and had a lot better dry and wet performance (Tirerack testing), while still having good snow performance (couldn't wait for the upcoming Tirerack winter tests on these). I didn't care about the treadwear difference (45K miles BFG vs. 60K miles Michelin) because I drive relatively low mileage, and the tires will probably age out, even if mostly garaged. The main pluses for the Michelin are the 3peak mountain snowflake rating if I need to drive through places that require that rating in winter (parts of Canada), and ice performance in Alaska. New England roads, at least where I am part of the year, are plowed and salted quickly enough that my GF has no problem with her cheap all-seasons on her Sienna. I keep my (rust-free) 2003 Legacy off the New England roads then anyway.

[idosubaru]

5 hours ago, NV Zeno said:

Good info, Ido.

Please don't read the following as disagreeing with you.

If the OP drives enough miles each year to wear down before degradation, why not a set of "mid-grade" quality tires?  

I agree 100%. I suggested that at the beginning of my diatribe.  “Buy inexpensive tires and replace sooner”. I’d still avoid no names or low end wal Mart for snow duty. I’ve seen them horrible after just 2 years if they’re parked outside in a sunny area on other peoples cars. I mean horrendous. Wish I would have taken pictures with the tire date stamps. That’s dangerous up here where people have no idea how bad they could be and sometimes don’t have much money  

Definitely a good fit. I didn’t mean anything as a one size fits all solution.  I was describing a key point that isn’t available elsewhere online. As you said There are other factors and good fits out there.

[idosubaru]

5 hours ago, Lightning Racer said:

No personal experience yet with these, but I've been shopping tires and reading reviews and just ordered some BF Goodrich G-Force Comp 2 A/S+. It was between that and the Michelin CrossClimate 2 for me. I liked that the BFG was a lot cheaper and had a lot better dry and wet performance (Tirerack testing), while still having good snow performance (couldn't wait for the upcoming Tirerack winter tests on these). I didn't care about the treadwear difference (45K miles BFG vs. 60K miles Michelin) because I drive relatively low mileage, and the tires will probably age out, even if mostly garaged. The main pluses for the Michelin are the 3peak mountain snowflake rating if I need to drive through places that require that rating in winter (parts of Canada), and ice performance in Alaska. New England roads, at least where I am part of the year, are plowed and salted quickly enough that my GF has no problem with her cheap all-seasons on her Sienna. I keep my (rust-free) 2003 Legacy off the New England roads then anyway.

Some BFGs and frequent “off road” type tires are good brands to look into - theyve got some good tires and often get a ton of snow/trashy road feeeback on subaru forums.  

Edited March 7, 2021 by idosubaru

[GeneralDisorder]

Eh - it's not that much of a difference overall - whoever has the best warranty/customer service in your area would be the best choice IMO. All other things being equal - I generally lean toward BF Goodrich. Their tires have been excellent on everything from off road to street performance. 

GD

 

[moosens]

And Jim , I’ve recently jumped ship from Town Fair to Firestone. For what that’s worth to ya. 
TF offers great deals but for a few reasons I’m avoiding them now. I won’t trash them badly but let’s just say there seems to be more attentive employees at the Fairfield Firestone and they also offer some great deals. 
 

I suggest getting the lifetime alignment deal. 
 

Hope to see you around. Cheers! 

[ThosL]

I picked up a set of Toyo tires at Town Faire.  They have a deal where buyers can try out tires and if they don't like them within a month, come back for an exchange for a different set.  Got the four and then had another shop mount and balance them for around $300.  You have to put in a request for the size you need and you get a call and they ship them from another shop.

[brus brother]

40 minutes ago, ThosL said:

I picked up a set of Toyo tires at Town Faire.  They have a deal where buyers can try out tires and if they don't like them within a month, come back for an exchange for a different set.  Got the four and then had another shop mount and balance them for around $300.  You have to put in a request for the size you need and you get a call and they ship them from another shop.

Never used Toyo before. Which model did you get? Are you happy with them?

How did the price break down? In CT I see Town Fair mounts free but charge $25 per tire for stem and balance...

[1 Lucky Texan]

Toyo Proxes have a good reputation going way back - usually used on cars for 'spirited' driving. My bet is any other offering from them will be at least OK.

[rverdoold]

It is funny that tires can always be all over the place. Last year I bought a set of Maxxis tires as they were almost best tested in the German car and driver club (ADAC). They do yearly independent testing. 

For summer tires:

https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/tests/reifen/sommerreifen/235-55-r17/alle-testergebnisse/

https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/tests/reifen/sommerreifen/205-55-r16/alle-testergebnisse/

Winter:

https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/tests/reifen/winterreifen/205-55-r16/alle-testergebnisse/

all season:

https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/tests/reifen/ganzjahresreifen/235-55-r17/alle-testergebnisse/

 

You dont have to understand German language that much, 0 is best, 5 is worst. Test show that all-season is worst in any case. My assumptions are that tires are shipped around the world so europe will get almost the same as in US/CAN. Except that some tires from use are not available in europe or just hard to get, like General tires.

[brus brother]

How's this? size is right. all season.  Rated for 130 mph, they also have H version (HP II) rated for 149 mph. How relevant is this?

Toyo Extensa A/S II 225/55R17 107V Passenger Tire

$90.35

Edited March 16, 2021 by brus brother

[ThosL]

On 3/12/2021 at 8:34 AM, brus brother said:

Never used Toyo before. Which model did you get? Are you happy with them?

How did the price break down? In CT I see Town Fair mounts free but charge $25 per tire for stem and balance...

The price for the tire, 15 inch actually as quite good.  4 for $300 or so and got the tires mounted and balanced elsewhere cheaper.

[brus brother]

On 3/13/2021 at 6:52 PM, brus brother said:

How's this? size is right. all season.  Rated for 130 mph, they also have H version (HP II) rated for 149 mph. How relevant is this?

Toyo Extensa A/S II 225/55R17 107V Passenger Tire

$90.35

I can't believe that this tire isn't listed for my 08 outback due to speed rating.

Everything else specs out except the above tire is only rated for V (130mph) and SOA specifies oem at H (149mph)

Um, I think I'd have other problems at 130 mph other than worrying whether the tires will stay on the rims!

WOOOOOOOSH

Edited March 16, 2021 by brus brother

[moosens]

Boycotting Town Fair here.

best of luck ! Many years with them and the last decade was probably a 4 out of a 10 rating at best. 
 

But I’ll confess that being in an urban area and frequenting the surrounding TFT’s only that you folks out in the ‘burbs can probably still get decent quality service at your local.....mmmm maybe. 

[nvu]

21 hours ago, brus brother said:

Um, I think I'd have other problems at 130 mph other than worrying whether the tires will stay on the rims!

 

[brus brother]

at last a professional recommendation...

I will only shop "black, round tires!"

Edited March 17, 2021 by brus brother

[dameson]

I got a set of Conti DWS06 from 4wheelonline. Dry traction is great, and they feel planted on the road. Performance in the rain and slush is quite impressive also.

Edited May 24, 2021 by dameson

[1 Lucky Texan]

I have an appointment to get some General G-Max AS05 or w'ever they're called on the WRX. Kinda had to play the sympathy card at the last inspection to get them to pass it.